episode 5 - broken bottle vs. knife

[metamurph]

Great show this week as always (so was SWAT made a nice combo) but it raised a number of questions for me.
1. I am left handed (shoot right as I am right eye dominant) if the majority of the world you fight is right-handed is there an advantage to training for right vs. left handed stance?
2. Knife - first you went for the slash to the forearm, then the tricep and then across the quad.  What about the affect of clothing?  a slash across a arm in a leather jacket or potentially across jeans doesn't seem like it would effectively get to the muscle fibers especially given that many states have a 3-3.5" law
3. Knife part 2, thoughts on tip-up vs. tip-down
4. Seems like a good situation for use of OC
5. Dorks in bars tend to be in packs...that aids the bravado -- I know that gets beyond the basic concept in time slot of a show

Seems like it would have been a great occasion for the retelling of Michael's biker bar "I am going to kill you" story to be retold.

tom

[Michael Janich]

Great show this week as always (so was SWAT made a nice combo) but it raised a number of questions for me.
1. I am left handed (shoot right as I am right eye dominant) if the majority of the world you fight is right-handed is there an advantage to training for right vs. left handed stance?

Training to deal with a right-handed attacker--the most likely threat--is the key. Whether you do that lefty or righty is up to you, just do it well.

2. Knife - first you went for the slash to the forearm, then the tricep and then across the quad.  What about the affect of clothing?  a slash across a arm in a leather jacket or potentially across jeans doesn't seem like it would effectively get to the muscle fibers especially given that many states have a 3-3.5" law

Clothing definitely has an effect. We will demonstrate that in an upcoming episode--I think next week. I also mention on another thread that if you don't feel confident cutting the triceps, the backhand cut can be moved up to the eyes. Same flow of cuts, but you adjust the targeting to work around the protection of clothing.[/quote]

3. Knife part 2, thoughts on tip-up vs. tip-down

I prefer tip-up carry. it eliminates the need to change grips between draw and opening of the blade.

4. Seems like a good situation for use of OC

Personally, I don't think at that range you could draw and apply OC as quickly as you could a knife.

5. Dorks in bars tend to be in packs...that aids the bravado -- I know that gets beyond the basic concept in time slot of a

In a half-hour show, functionally 19-1/2 minutes of content, we can't cover everything. Rob will address multiple shooting targets later in the season, but there's only so much we can cover in the time available. Hopefully we'll have a third season...

Stay safe,

Mike

[tombogan03884]

 If veiwer demand has any bearing I think the 3rd season is a pretty safe bet .

[PegLeg45]

If veiwer demand has any bearing I think the 3rd season is a pretty safe bet .

Time to send more positive emails to TOC.

[metamurph]

Clothing definitely has an effect. We will demonstrate that in an upcoming episode--I think next week. I also mention on another thread that if you don't feel confident cutting the triceps, the backhand cut can be moved up to the eyes. Same flow of cuts, but you adjust the targeting to work around the protection of clothing.
I prefer tip-up carry. it eliminates the need to change grips between draw and opening of the blade.

Thanks Michael,  with going through fabric it seems like having the mix of 1/2 serrated blade would be a benefit but I haven't done any tests.

tom

[Sponsor]

[Michael Janich]

Thanks Michael,  with going through fabric it seems like having the mix of 1/2 serrated blade would be a benefit but I haven't done any tests.

tom

Dear Tom:

I have done lots of tests with different edge configurations and serration patterns. The down side of serrations is when you run into loose clothing (a popular style these days). The serrations can grab and spin the clothing without cutting the underlying tissue. Good technique can mitigate this, but after lots of experimentation, I chose to stick with very sharp plain-edged blades for personal defense--ideally in a wharncliffe profile.


Stay safe,

Mike

[m25operator]

There you go Tom, Answers from an expert. Good to see you posting again.

[LoveMyXds]

Michael,
I ordered TBD season 1 on Amazon a couple of weeks ago and I can't wait! Should be here on the 3rd. I can't talk my better half into getting digital cable, just for your show (but I'm still working on her!)

Having been a bouncer in Boston and all over New Hampshire and working 16 Bike Weeks in Laconia I have seen lots of not so fun stuff happen in clubs. Bottles, beer mugs, pool cues, chairs, tables, knives, guns, ball peen hammers and shotguns have been used against patrons and myself, so I have a little experience with this subject. I have been stabbed in the back and had a involuntary piercing of my right forearm with an icepick (gotta love the exit wounds....) I'm not a guru, but I've been there and done that, and been on the sharp end of the stick and have been lucky, or had someone upstairs watching over me....

DISLAIMER: I DID NOT WATCH THE EPISODE, SO PLEASE TAKE THE FOLLOWING WITH THE UTMOST RESPECT, I AM COMMENTING ONLY ON WHAT I HAVE READ IN THIS POST.

Here's my take on the broken bottle vs. knife scenario:

A broken bottle has only one threat axis. It is not very effective except for stabbing. Slashing it is a minor threat because the bottle usually breaks apart, not transferring much energy to the cutting edges. Only bare skin is at real risk. Except for the "golden bb" that gets you in the throat or neck. Clothing alone is very effective at protecting against lethal cuts from a bottle.... Distance and controlling the angles matters even more...

A knife is a serious threat in every axis. There is no safe place from a serious knifefighter. Clothing reduces damage negligibly. If the drunken punk had a knife or was a serious martial opponent he wouldn't improvise an inferior weapon.

Here is my take on the situation from a man who took his job protecting patrons very seriously. Pulling a knife and attacking someone means that guys like me went from disarming a drunken angry threat that is SERIOUS to wading into a DEADLY confrontation. This causes even the bravest man to reconsider helping. You would be surprised how often even an aggressors friends will intervene to stop their drunken fool friend. Once they see their buddy getting knifed, what do you think happens? They will kill you... So, in my humble opinion, drawing a knife and attacking your opponent will make it very unlikely that anyone will help you, enrage anyone who knows the punk with the bottle, make more likely that innocents will get hurt, and if you slash him in three places you can very likely end up in prison. Me and a partner broke up a fight in a parkint lot, my buddy was attacked with a baseball bat, and he easily disarmed the drunken fool and proceeded to hit the punk three times, breaking the bad guys arm jaw and collarbone. My partner was charged with first degree assault, was convicted, and was plea bargained to time served. He is now a felon, had all his firearms siezed, cannot vote, and ruined his life. Why? Because he used an inordinate amount of force for self defense and the "victim" was drunk and not responsible for his actions.

I am not preaching here, and I don't have all the answers, I am just trying to pose a different perspective and encourage debate.

Regards,
Scott

[Michael Janich]

Dear Scott:

Thank you very much for your post. Based on your experience, you bring a very interesting perspective to the discussion. Here are some thoughts regarding your comments:

First of all, I would hope that everyone who watches TBD understands that the scenarios are designed to provide examples of skills and concepts; they are not specific, rote responses to particular situations.

In the knife vs. bottle scenario, the first lesson we were trying to illustrate was the escalation to a lethal threat. Since you didn't see the episode, let me fill in the blanks a bit. The scene began with me and Rob arguing. I try to use verbal skills to deescalate, but he refuses to back down. He then states that "This is going to end tonight," grabs and breaks the bottle, and says "I'm going to kill you." I respond by drawing and opening my knife and ordering him to back off and drop the bottle.

The intended lessons there were:

1) Use deescalation, verbal skills, and boundary setting to avoid physical conflict.
2) If you are going to bring a weapon into a fight, you must be justified in doing so.
3) To bring a lethal weapon into a fight, you must be able to justify and articulate that you were in fear for your life or in fear of grievous bodily injury.
4) If you carry a knife or other weapon, have the skill to deploy it and use it if necessary.
5) Even after you deploy your weapon, continue using verbal skills and your demonstrated readiness to defend yourself to try to resolve the situation without physical violence.

Once we took that scenario into the gym and began to discuss knife tactics, the goal was to explain the use of the knife to achieve stopping power. Again, the instruction was conceptual and not limited to a finite analysis of “he has a bottle and I have a knife.” Also, I clearly explained that the targeting priorities are designed to disable an attacker and that you can—and must—stop during the process the moment that he ceases to be a threat. I specifically stated that if my first cut to the forearm had the desired effect and he dropped the bottle, I was no longer legally justified to cut him.

Your experience as a bouncer gives you tremendous insight into the realities of bar fights and an exceptional ability to “read” the seriousness of situations. Very importantly, you are also “duty bound” as a security professional to intervene in situations where others are using violence on each other. That gives you a very different perspective than a potential victim of violence in your bar. A victim who is suddenly confronted by someone with a broken bottle screaming “I’m going to kill you” will not be thinking that the bottle is primarily a threat only when used as a thrusting weapon, nor will he be expecting people he doesn’t know at the bar to intervene to keep him safe. He would rightfully be in fear for his life, considering his options to stay alive, and also fully aware of the long-term consequences of those options. Anyone who carries a weapon must think through those consequences in advance as part of their training and preparation.

Those are the real conceptual lessons that we try to present in the show. Again, we do our best with limited resources (after all, we ain’t Hollywood) to present compelling, realistic scenarios that illustrate threats and potential responses. While we certainly stand by those scenarios, analyzing them in meticulous detail is not the goal. Identifying the broader concepts, tactics, and necessary skill sets is, in my opinion, more important.

I hope this helps. I also hope you’ll continue to share your insights based on your perspective and real-world experiences.

Stay safe,

Mike

[LoveMyXds]

Michael,

Thank you so much for the insightful reply. I think you are doing a great service with he show, and I can't wait til tomorrow to get Season 1 and share it with my family..... At work now so I will reply in more detail later tonite....

Regards,
Scott