Author Topic: Gunfighting From Your Vehicle  (Read 10405 times)

tombogan03884

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Re: Gunfighting From Your Vehicle
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2010, 10:08:15 PM »
 WHAT ?

Michael Bane

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Re: Gunfighting From Your Vehicle
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2010, 01:06:21 PM »
Percussion in the car while we were filming Rob was extremely loud.

I think the briefest summary we could put together would be "drive if you can" — being in a big steel box is better than not — and drive erratic and fast — it's harder to hit a moving target than television makes it appear to be. We've all put a lot of rounds through various and sundry cars, and there's lots of doo-dads in car bodies that stop or deflect bullets.

In general, if I'm traveling in a car for more than a trip to the convenience store, I prefer (and recommend) a dedicated driving holster that readily gives you access to your carry gun without doing the Rob Pincus dance to get to a strong side IWB. For short trips, I tend to stick a pocket pistol in the center console so it is more readily accessible.

If you've gotta bail out of the car, BAIL TOWARD COVER! That is, make sure you sight a destination before you exit the car. Running down the middle of the street screaming like a little girl is not, repeat not, a plan. In exiting the car, the armed person protects the unarmed person during the exit...ideally, driver and passenger need to bail out the same side of the car, the one closest to cover. Armed person first to if necessary provide cover for the unarmed person. A good reason to have 2 guns (as I typically do on driving trips) is that you have a means to arm the passenger.

In the past I've recommend higher capacity guns for long driving trips, as a carjacking is one of the few civilian situations where multiple attackers are the norm. Typically, I carry a larger capacity 9mm loaded antipersonnel ammunition backed up by a magazine of heavy duty penetrators. Considering my baseline paranoia, my next driving trip will include as my second gun (the one not on my person) the Spike's Tactical 9mm AR pistol with 30-round magazines and a single point sling, an Aimpoint Micro mounted on the top rail and an Insight MX6 white light/laster on the right side rail. If I gotta fight, I'd prefer the firepower advantage, thank you!

As I said in what has become my most controversial podcast, I have indeed traveled with a carbine and I suspect I may well again. In a period of intense social dislocation, if I have to travel I want a long gun with me. The podcast came after an urban riot situation where the passenger and driver of a car "stumbled" into a riot — a MAJOR failure of situational awareness — and, as I remember, the driver got out to try and "calm things down." That's exactly what happened, as the driver ended up dead and there's nothing quite so calm as a dead person. The podcast was controversial because I said if you are trapped in a riot situation and you have seen lethal or potentially lethal violence  directed at you or innocents, ALL the participants in the riot are equally guilty of participating in lethal attacks and your actions must take that into account...in other words, if you're in front of me, I will drive over you without regard to race, color, creed, age, religion or sexual orientation. Ditto if, heaven forbid, I have to shoot my way out of such a situation.

Michael B
Michael Bane, Majordomo @ MichaelBane.TV

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Re: Gunfighting From Your Vehicle
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2010, 11:24:22 AM »
What a fun subject!  This is one of the classes that we offer and generally have the most interest in, well, Vehicle Defense and Extreme Close Quarters Defense.  Matter-of-fact - we have a LEO (Instructor) class coming up in the first week of May in Panama City, FL.  We have some videos and still photos on our website.

Now, back to the question..

As previously stated, fight or drive NOT BOTH!

If the threat presents itself from the drivers side of the vehicle you may have to fight while you are "seated" but you need to get away from the window.  This puts some distance between yourself and the threat and keeps your firearm out of the immediate threat of take away.  Exiting the vehicle if it is disabled or it is blocked in, may be needed.  Use as much of the cover the vehicle will provide, but be aware that it is not as much cover as you may think.  And never forget about the "beauty of bouncing bullets" because it works both ways and not only on the ground.  Bullets will bounce off of the hood of your vehicle.  When you are crouched behind the engine block using it as cover and the bullet bounces off of the hood of the vehicle where do you think it will go?

Here in California one of the popular methods of carjacking is the bump and rob.  Car gets tapped from behind and the guy gets out to check the damage, you do too and suddenly the guy that rear ended you tells you to hand over your keys.  He takes your keys and his passenger slides into the drivers seat of his car and they drive away.  This has also been happening at red lights, the big difference there is that they put a car in front of you and behind you so getting away is nearly impossible.  If you are going to drive away don't worry about hitting other vehicles.  Drive away hard and aggressively.

As for the knife... Well, I would be more prone to using a firearm than a knife, but I guess that would also depend on what is available and your level of training.

Well, I could go on at length on this subject, it is a four day class with A LOT of information.

cjwise5 - if you are in law enforcement and you would like to message me your Training Officers contact information I can send out a couple of Course Syllabuses that may be of interest.

cjwise5

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Re: Gunfighting From Your Vehicle
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2010, 01:29:36 PM »
Thanks for all the replies on this.  Guess my opinion is that being ambushed as an officer in this situation would require that I fight or drive.  The bad guy and the situation he creates will dictate my response on that one.  Kinda hard to game it in my head at this point.  If it's a carjacking - my response will be determined by my cargo, ie: the family.  If I'm alone.  I think I'm going to get out and let him have the car.  (not sure of the legal freedoms of re-engaging the guy once he's distracted by getting into my car)  If, on the other hand my wife and kids are in the car with me I think I would go for my gun.  Don't want the bad guy dumping rounds into my car as I'm driving off.  Especially with my kids in there. 

TAB

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Re: Gunfighting From Your Vehicle
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2010, 05:10:31 PM »
something to think about, a 3000 lb car is a 21 millon grain projectile.


15 mph is 22 fps, said 3000 lb car has 66000 ftlbs of energy whentraveling 15 mph.
I always break all the clay pigeons,  some times its even with lead.

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Re: Gunfighting From Your Vehicle
« Reply #15 on: Today at 07:40:16 AM »

PegLeg45

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Re: Gunfighting From Your Vehicle
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2010, 05:28:59 PM »
something to think about, a 3000 lb car is a 21 millon grain projectile.


15 mph is 22 fps, said 3000 lb car has 66000 ftlbs of energy whentraveling 15 mph.

Tell me about it.....try it at 45mph..........  ;)
"I expect perdition, I always have. I keep this building at my back, and several guns handy, in case perdition arrives in a form that's susceptible to bullets. I expect it will come in the disease form, though. I'm susceptible to diseases, and you can't shoot a damned disease." ~ Judge Roy Bean, Streets of Laredo

For the Patriots of this country, the Constitution is second only to the Bible for most. For those who love this country, but do not share my personal beliefs, it is their Bible. To them nothing comes before the Constitution of these United States of America. For this we are all labeled potential terrorists. ~ Dean Garrison

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TAB

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Re: Gunfighting From Your Vehicle
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2010, 05:50:49 PM »
Tell me about it.....try it at 45mph..........  ;)


and a 6500 lb 1 ton truck.   ;D 

honestly I think I'd rather be shot then hit by a car.
I always break all the clay pigeons,  some times its even with lead.

ericire12

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Re: Gunfighting From Your Vehicle
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2010, 06:52:09 PM »

and a 6500 lb 1 ton truck.   ;D 

honestly I think I'd rather be shot then hit by a car.

Alright, boys and girls, the line to get shot forms right behind TAB. ;D
Everything I needed to learn in life I learned from Country Music.

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Re: Gunfighting From Your Vehicle
« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2010, 08:11:28 PM »
Lots of good stuff here guys...  Over the years, I've done the demo from inside the car several times and over the last year, probably done it more than any other, between taping for PFD, TBD and SWAT TV.... I've found some things about the issue of "percussion":

 Shooting through the driver side window is least and shooting through the rear window results in the most "Boom"....  I think the physics are pretty obvious. The expanding gasses that create the pressure and the accompanying "bang" are being blown out of the actual passenger compartment when you shoot through the driver side glass and have the most room to expand and bounce off the other interior surfaces back at your when you shoot through the rear glass.

There is also an odd type of pressure wave that can be noticed when shooting through the windshield, because while it is usually close to the muzzle, it also doesn't shatter, so some gas is vented, but it is still very loud.

-RJP

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Re: Gunfighting From Your Vehicle
« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2010, 08:36:05 AM »
Thanks Rob, you made me think of another point -

Shooting through the windshield should be considered but can be very dangerous.  The glass particles that are splashed back may be more dangerous long term than many consider.  The immediate concern would be getting them into your eyes, there by compromising your vision.  Those same particles getting into your mouth and nose can be carried down into your esophagus and lungs causing hemorrhaging and other long term problems.

If it must be done hold your breath.  Before you inhale blow out HARD through your nose and then your mouth.  When you get out of the vehicle look up, hold your breath and shake/wipe your clothing off vigorously.  Step backwards and repeat the blowing through the nose then mouth.

I may be overly cautious but my years in the medical field taught me that the body really doesn't like to try to absorb or digest glass.

 

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