Range Rumor of New Colt Saw

[Discworld717]

I was shooting this weekend at LRGC in Pa. One of the shooters had attended Larry Vickers Carbine class in Harrisburg Pa On Dec 28-29. Also in attendance, was a Colt Rep. He had a prototype new Saw. By accounts it performed very well over the two day course. He said it was a magazine fed weapon. Does anyone have any other info?

[twyacht]

I know H&K has tried with the XM8, and has run into problems, don't know about Colt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XM8_rifle



During the same period, the Army came under pressure from other arms makers to open up the XM8 to competition. The main argument was that the weapon that was being adopted was a substantially different system than for the original competition that ATK and H&K had actually won (see XM29). Other issues were that the Army has a legislated obligation to prefer U.S.-based manufacturers, and that a previous agreement with Colt Defense required the Army to involve Colt in certain small-arms programs. The XM8 program was put on hold by the Army in 2004. The exact reason why this happened is a matter of debate; some combination of the aforementioned technical issues, funding restrictions, and outside pressure being involved.

In 2005, the Army issued a formal Request for Proposals (RFP) for the OICW Increment One family of weapons. This RFP gave manufacturers six months to develop and deliver prototype weapons with requirements very similar to the XM8 capabilities, but with the addition of a squad automatic weapon (SAW) configuration. Currently, no XM8 prototypes have been shown that actually match the capabilities of the M249 (e.g. fast barrel replacement, high sustained rate of fire, belt feed). The OICW Increment One requirement for the SAW includes fast barrel replacement and high sustained rate of fire, but leaves the ammunition feed choice up to the manufacturer.


Maybe someone knows something new.

[fightingquaker13]

Here is a real basic question. What is the advantage of a light machine gun over a standard assault rifle on full auto, if it is limited to a 30 round mag? It seems the function of the LMG is to put a ton of lead down range and still be easily man portable. If my M-16 has a 30 rd mag and can go full auto, what do I gain by having a heavier weapon in the same caliber with the same 30 rounder? Belts are a PITA, true. Picture the Quaker dealing with an M-60 in the dark (not a pretty picture, and not my finest hour as a cadet ). In my defence, we had a grand total of two days with the thing. Still, I could, if  I had prevented the damn belts from becoming a gaggle, lay down 100 rounds of suppresive fire. A clear advantage. Maybe going to something light, like the P-90, perhaps beefed up a lot from a a CQB rifle to a dedicated LMG with bi-pods etc, with its 90 round mags (again suppresive fire and portability seeming to be the main goal here) might be a better option. Other wise, the original SAW design specs, which was supposed to take belts or 30 rounders seems to be hard to beat. Failing that, a new model M-60 in a heavier caliber would seem to be the place to start, big bullets and lots of them.  What am I missing?
FQ13

[tombogan03884]

 It's got to do with the design mechanics FQ. The "machine gun" is designed to handle more sustained fire and therefore higher temperatures, but this eats barrels so you need to be able to change them quickly and easily these factors are where the extra weight comes from. The Assault Rifle is only intended for short bursts, with most fire being aimed single shots. The advantage is that the heavier sustained fire weapon can be used to establish a "base of fire" for the squad or fire team.
The Nazi Wehrmacht had the highest proportion of Machine guns in history, the rifle man were purely to support the MG, carrying extra ammo during movement and covering flanks and blind spots when positioned.
The Marines in contrast used a 4 man fire team the was essentially the smallest possible "Combined arms " force. There was an Automatic Rifleman, ( now the SAW ) he supplied the base of fire, while the Grenadier, armed with an M 203 provided the artillery support, wit 2 riflemen to cover blind spots or engage individual targets.

[fightingquaker13]

It's got to do with the design mechanics FQ. The "machine gun" is designed to handle more sustained fire and therefore higher temperatures, but this eats barrels so you need to be able to change them quickly and easily these factors are where the extra weight comes from. The Assault Rifle is only intended for short bursts, with most fire being aimed single shots. The advantage is that the heavier sustained fire weapon can be used to establish a "base of fire" for the squad or fire team.
The Nazi Wehrmacht had the highest proportion of Machine guns in history, the rifle man were purely to support the MG, carrying extra ammo during movement and covering flanks and blind spots when positioned.
The Marines in contrast used a 4 man fire team the was essentially the smallest possible "Combined arms " force. There was an Automatic Rifleman, ( now the SAW ) he supplied the base of fire, while the Grenadier, armed with an M 203 provided the artillery support, wit 2 riflemen to cover blind spots or engage individual targets.

I get the tacticals. The 2 four man fire teams in a squad concept seems ideal. 2 for precision fire, 1 for close rage artillery, and one for suppressive fire. Its the hardware question. If the "suppresive fire" guy can only fire short (as in 3-5 round, vs 20 round) bursts what good is he?
FQ13

[Sponsor]

[tombogan03884]

 That's why the extra weight, to absorb the heat from more longer bursts. I don't know this, but it could be that by using the 30 round mags the frequent reloads lessens the heat some what and allows some reduction in weight.
Personally I think the last best machine gun was the Browning 1919 A6. the M60 was a POS. they took the best MG's of WWII and combined their worst features, at least they didn't add a water jacket  

[Cutter68CB]

Here is a real basic question. What is the advantage of a light machine gun over a standard assault rifle on full auto, if it is limited to a 30 round mag? It seems the function of the LMG is to put a ton of lead down range and still be easily man portable. If my M-16 has a 30 rd mag and can go full auto, what do I gain by having a heavier weapon in the same caliber with the same 30 rounder? Belts are a PITA, true. Picture the Quaker dealing with an M-60 in the dark (not a pretty picture, and not my finest hour as a cadet ). In my defence, we had a grand total of two days with the thing. Still, I could, if  I had prevented the damn belts from becoming a gaggle, lay down 100 rounds of suppresive fire. A clear advantage. Maybe going to something light, like the P-90, perhaps beefed up a lot from a a CQB rifle to a dedicated LMG with bi-pods etc, with its 90 round mags (again suppresive fire and portability seeming to be the main goal here) might be a better option. Other wise, the original SAW design specs, which was supposed to take belts or 30 rounders seems to be hard to beat. Failing that, a new model M-60 in a heavier caliber would seem to be the place to start, big bullets and lots of them.  What am I missing?
FQ13

Another difference between the 2 are recievers that work from a (open Bolt as to a closed bolt) design. Any closed bolt design like the AR's can and will cook off a round if one is left in the barrel after a sustained fire event. Using an Ares Defense belt feed upper our a bunch of C-Mags could lead to an unexspected discharge if the chamber isn't cleared. All the FN's are open bolt recievers allowing them to cool faster...

[tombogan03884]

 Good point Cutter, I had forgotten about that.

[Big Frank]

You can get Beta C-Mags for the saw. !00 rounds vs. 200 in a belt but it eliminates all belt problems. Any new saw will have to be 100-200 rounds to compete with what's already in the field.

Tom, I generally liked the M60 but the rivets holding the two halves together had to be replaced with a newer type of rivet. They start falling apart. The M240 seemed solid as a rock. I bet you would like that one.

[bulldog75]

The pig was a 18 lb club. Fing got the choice to carry that or the radio. I was dumb enough to pick the pig. Dam thing crapped its guts out all of the time. Dam armorer had 3 deadlined at a time all of the time. I finally got one that worked and it was great carrying that thing all over gods creation. Was happy to get a radio. I could do more damage with the radio. Platoon Sergent told me that if I ever let the Lt. touch the mike he would kill me. I am still alive today. Saws are alright. Love the M2 and MK19.