Walk-in gun vault designs / plans?

[kilopaparomeo]

All really great comments...TAB, I'll send some more specific comments to you and maybe we can even schedule a call.  I'm travelling in Italy for business next week and this week is packed, so the communication may be "bursty" via email.  Also, I don't want to "wear out my welcome" taking advantage of your knowledge.

All said, I know that this would be easier if I was building a new home and could build from scratch...retrofitting is more difficult.    The specifics of the location are as follows:

• The room where I want to put this vault has a poured concrete floor and cinderblock walls.  It is below grade and there are no windows.  One of the big issues is that the ceiling above is relatively low...~ a little over 7 ft... with wood stringers for the floor above.  To me, this is a problem to get a ceiling structure on the "box".
• I live about 50 yards from the shoreline of Lake Michigan and the soil is completely sand.  Most houses here don't have gutters on them because the rainfall never pools and rarely do people here on the beach have sump pumps.  In fact, 2 years ago we had torrential rains that flooded basements, caused landslides "up on the bluff" above the beach.  No one on the beach (including us) even got a drop of water in our basements.  I'm assuming that means it isn't very stable either...however given that this is inside a house does this matter?
• I am assuming that I will be running electrical into it for lights and a dehumidifier.  Also assuming I will need a ventilation system of some kind with a fire damper
• I will buy a fireproof vault door from one of the safe manufacturers
• As to budget, since the location is difficult to move a massive safe into, my budget is trying to stay somewhere at or under the cost of 2-3 smaller fireproof safes.  Assuming this means $4-5K.  I really don't know if what I want can be done for this amount.

KPR out

[shooter32]

Pictures and or a video tour upon completion is a must! 

[PegLeg45]

A guy at the range told me once about a home-built gun vault he'd seen. He said the guy ordered a safe door and hinges from one of the big safe makers for a fair price. He dug four corner holes and put steel reinforced pads 4' deep with anchor ties. He then built a steel frame that was about 6' W x 8' L x 6' H. He then skinned the outside with 1/2" plate steel and the inside with 3/8" plate. The bottom was 1/2" also. Then he poured the 6" space between the inner and outer walls with a fireproof refractory like they use in melting furnaces. (**Note" I used to work with refractory and it mixes and pours like concrete.). After the stuff set up, he capped the top with 1/2" steel.
It wasn't cheap by any means, but it sounds like it was sturdy.

[Tyler Durden]

I am very anti-brick/block, but very pro poured concrete.

In my opinion, traditionally placed brick and/or block is akin to a chain.  And as we all know, a chain is only as strong as its weakest link, which in my opinion, would be the mortar.

That said...I am not all that familiar with how strong a block wall can get if you filled the cavities up with concrete...considering that the cavities are always going to be offset by ... I guess...at least 50%....which I am guessing could limit how big of an aggregate you can actually have in the mix. 

A smaller aggregate would allow the wet concrete to flow in and around the cavities better and fill them more completely.

But does a smaller aggregate lead to weaker concrete?

Now, this is just me...kinda thinking out loud here...but with the weight of a vault door slamming shut and when the door is swung 90 degrees to the wall will the weight of it levering itself out away from a block will....over time, will the wall withstand that kind of "abuse"?

I can just picture cracks in the wall or the mortar'ed joints spreading outward from the vault door's frame.

The other thing to keep in mind is that just because your basement floor is concrete it might not be thick enough to withstand the weight of a concrete block wall on top of it.

I have been in homes before where the "sub-grade" under the basement slab wasn't all that smooth or level, so in some places you could have 3 inches of concrete or you could just have one inch.

If you put enough block on a floor so thin, I am thinking it is going to start cracking.   

[MikeBjerum]

Tyler,

I like poured much more than block, but we are talking about retrofit in an existing building.  In this situation it is much easier and almost as strong to use block and fill the cores around rods.

[Sponsor]

[fightingquaker13]

Not to be a buzzkill, because I am learning a lot from this thread, but I have a question. How much is really good insurance, say $1k deductible, vs the Fortress of Solitude? I mean you have some irreplacables. Put those in a safe. The rest? Trust to a good alarm and a good insuror. Not a suggestion, just a question.
FQ13

[MikeBjerum]

My insurance is about $1 per thousand on guns and the such.  Not much in the big picture, and you can't buy a safe with that money.  The bigger issue is personal responsibility in containing guns and ammo, hassle of replacing everything, not making your home an easy target, and the protection of the priceless items like grandpa's old gun.

[Tyler Durden]

In the same vein as replacing Grandpa's old gun....

There are obviously some of the guns in our OP's collection that aren't being made any more.

How does the insurance company put a value on those?

Then if they do get stolen or burnt up in a fire, how do they do right by our OP either by compensating him for the loss or getting a replacement?

My guess is that they won't do right (because, hey, they are a business like any other and they are out to make a profit just like any other business) or they can't.

I would NOT necessarily rely on the insurance company to take care of me/my needs/my wants.

Anywhooo...I am not so certain that concrete filled block is going to be a strong as a poured concrete wall...which yeah, I have to agree with ya...would be impossible to do in a retrofit situation.

How much does a vault door way?

What kind of leverage or "moment arm" does an open door produce on a wall?

[MikeBjerum]

My guns are insured on an agreed value.  I list them, put an honest value on them (purchase price, replacement price, or a combination of the two), I update the value every few years, and in a loss the company pays the insured amount. 

This is the way jewelry and collectibles are insured.  It is more like life insurance than property insurance.

[fightingquaker13]

My guns are insured on an agreed value.  I list them, put an honest value on them (purchase price, replacement price, or a combination of the two), I update the value every few years, and in a loss the company pays the insured amount. 

This is the way jewelry and collectibles are insured.  It is more like life insurance than property insurance.

I don't think I made myself clear. If I were kilo, I WOULD, buy a smaller safe for the irreplaceables. The rest of the herd? Again, maybe insurance is the way to go. I trust TAB on contracting. He may be a bit of a perfectionist (which is what you want in a contractor as opposed to the reverse) but I would take him at his word when he says "Its not as cheap and easy as it sounds". Thing is, I think if you have an alarm, lock your doors, don't put out boneheaded signs saying "Guns are here, please steal them", and pay your property taxes to fund the police, you have done due diligence in protecting your firearms (assuming no kids). I'm not saying insurance is the way to go, just that it should be a cost benefit/analysis.
FQ13