Educate Me About Laser Rangefinders

[Overload]

I bought the Leica CRF 1200 the Army chose for one of its kits.   It's a monocle style, held in one hand.  I got one that reads in yards. 

This leads me to a followup question: With these, scopes and binoculars, how important is the glass/ optics?  How much better is a $2000 Zeiss than the $19.95 infomercial binocs?

[philw]

they have just come out with a new one

CRF-1600
Now with Integrated Measurement of Angle of Elevation/Declination, Temperature and Barometric Pressure.
Leica Rangemaster CRF1600 with
Integrated Intelligent Ballistic Program.
This is one smart bit of gear! And will be available in August 2010.
The new LEICA RANGEMASTER CRF 1600 measures not only the precise distance, it even calculates exactly where the bullet will hit the target in advance.
In addition to the standard ballistic trajectory, its Leica microcomputer also integrates the angle of elevation/declination, the temperature and the barometric pressure in its calculations. This brings an invaluable benefit for hunters, as it displays the point of aim in less than 0.3 seconds without any need to study ballistic tables and without laborious measuring procedures. Hunters can react rapidly and accurately and get their shots right on target in even the most difficult situations.
A further improvement offered by the new Rangemaster 1600 is its extended range of 1500 meters (1600 yards).
Other details include.
Weight is 200 grams.
7X magnification.
Its strong and tough carbon-fiber reinforced body is waterproof to a depth of 1 meter. .
Cost is U.S.$799.00.

[philw]

This leads me to a followup question: With these, scopes and binoculars, how important is the glass/ optics?  How much better is a $2000 Zeiss than the $19.95 infomercial binocs?

it has everything to do with the quality of the glass / coatings / build quality / warranty

take Zeiss / leupold / Swarovski  they are seen as the top of the line ( the prices are )  they have all the coatings and gasses they use to stop fogging up  also any issues  they have brilliant warranty's ( from what I have read ) I have heard of them replacing 10 year old bino's

also it is all about letting light in  and being clear  especially at night and sun rise  the coatings they use also make a lot of difference ( I have noticed that when using a VXIII scope on my mate's rifle  compared to the Tasco on my rifle ( I will when I have the $$$ swap over to a lup)

[GUNS-R-US]

Lets stay on thread, and start a new thread on range finding reticle technique, There are a lot of range finding reticles, I own several, from european to Lupe MK 4's, and a Burris 8x32 with their own version of the Mildot, which are not all created equal, some use ovals, some use dots, the cotension on each is different and can be different at different power settings. You must understand your system, and if you want to be really good, keep a record book. A good friend of mine was the #1 rifle for quite a while on the Dallas Swat team, now retired, but we shot together and competed together, both pistol and rifle, he explained to me, Dallas required each team member to develope their own record book with their rifle/scope combo, and range known objects at different distances, Like the average length of a house door, window, a car tire, a soda can, of course a mature human male. Now put that down in the book, for future use, as these items can be seen in a normal urban setting, even if the shooter is ranging the house next door, but it is not his object. A record book in rifle shooting will make you a better shooter, not just ranging but seeing the patterns of your groups, and how slight sight adjustments, can put you 20% more in the 10 ring or kill zone. It includes, sight settings, angle of the sun, wind direction and speed. Also very important is your call shots, that means when you press the trigger, where did you call it? Then where did it hit? Is it you or the gun? The record book will reveal that to you.

Lets start the new thread 

Amen brother. I would love to see this thread at lenghth and with all the knowledge available on this board. Its why I made the post I did. This kind of thing is why I stay here. You should start it. I would, but I have gotten into too many nonsense political dustups to get the following you would, and I'm not only one here that wants to learn this stuff. What you are talking about is the difference between cooking and baking. Cooking? You go by smell and add a pinch of this and pinch of that until it just feels right. Baking? You measure and weigh everything presicely and pay close attention to every detail. I'm a great cook. I suck as a bakker. I think its the same reason why I think I could bet serious money against you on the skeet range but wouldn't even wager a  beer if I didn't want to buy you one any way with a rifle.  Your insight, as well as several other military and competition shooters would be a very worthwhile use of bandwidth.
FQ13

Those are good points for the URBAN shooter. Things in the urban environment are made to specs. Very few of us will ever get to shoot anything in an urban environment! I'm not say they're not good skills to know if the SHTF, but I think what the rangefinder is really for, or at least what I think Bill want's them for, and what I mostly use mine for, is hunting in the wilderness or dessert or what ever wild terrain you have in your neck of the world. I live and hunt in the N.W. very rocky, steep, tree covered terrain. Very few things in my hunting environment have a spec you can base a measurement on. How big or small is a tree, a rock, or a bush?? IDK! My SOP when hunting is to guess what the distance to a given tree or rock is, then I range it to see how well I did. I usually don't do much better that 50% on most ranges. When I pick a stand area for the morning or evening hunt I will range all the likely shooting lanes to see what the maximum ranges are going to be ahead of time. When your looking across a slope 2,3, or 800 yards it's very difficult to guess how close or far things are. The difference in a 200 and 300 yard shot is significant for most calibers, it can likely lead to miss or worse a poor wounding shot.  I guess I'm harping on this because I think the technology is there to help us make better shots leading to more humane kills when were out hunting. 

[fightingquaker13]

Those are good points for the URBAN shooter. Things in the urban environment are made to specs. Very few of us will ever get to shoot anything in an urban environment! I'm not say they're not good skills to know if the SHTF, but I think what the rangefinder is really for, or at least what I think Bill want's them for, and what I mostly use mine for, is hunting in the wilderness or dessert or what ever wild terrain you have in your neck of the world. I live and hunt in the N.W. very rocky, steep, tree covered terrain. Very few things in my hunting environment have a spec you can base a measurement on. How big or small is a tree, a rock, or a bush?? IDK! My SOP when hunting is to guess what the distance to a given tree or rock is, then I range it to see how well I did. I usually don't do much better that 50% on most ranges. When I pick a stand area for the morning or evening hunt I will range all the likely shooting lanes to see what the maximum ranges are going to be ahead of time. When your looking across a slope 2,3, or 800 yards it's very difficult to guess how close or far things are. The difference in a 200 and 300 yard shot is significant for most calibers, it can likely lead to miss or worse a poor wounding shot.  I guess I'm harping on this because I think the technology is there to help us make better shots leading to more humane kills when were out hunting.  

I think we've hit on the core of our argument. You like to hunt at long range. Me, I won't take a shot over a hundred yards (150 on a bad day) as its just the way I like to play the game. For me, not for thee. I'm not passing judgement. Its all good either way as long as you kill cleanly. Its all a game, play by whatever rules make you happy, and I'm the last to judge, largely because I  (and the deer) really don't care, as long as you can put the bullets where you want them. The thing is though, my rifles aren't just for hunting. They are for SHTF, and its not a crown roast of vension I'm going to be playing for. I will never shoot at a deer at 300 yards. I am however glad that I got the chance to test my rifle and scope at a 500 yard range. (for the curious, the .270 works fine to 350 or so, then you need to get into serious hold over). Still the steel plates rang at 500 with an out of the box Ruger and a mid range (B@L) scope. Not too shabby if I do say so myself. Thing is, I would like to learn how to do this better. I can tell 75, from  100 yard just fine and do better than that at 15 vs 35, but at longer ranges (say 400-600 plus?). Well, thats why I'm on this board. I think range finders are good, but Guns, if I ever need to shoot at someting 600 yrds away, it won't be a deer and I don't want to trust my life to duracell. Not an argument, just my perspective on this. YMMV.
FQ13

[Sponsor]

[GUNS-R-US]

I think we've hit on the core of our argument. You like to hunt at long range. Me, I won't take a shot over a hundred yards (150 on a bad day) as its just the way I like to play the game. For me, not for thee. I'm not passing judgement. Its all good either way as long as you kill cleanly. Its all a game, play by whatever rules make you happy, and I'm the last to judge, largely because I  (and the deer) really don't care, as long as you can put the bullets where you want them. The thing is though, my rifles aren't just for hunting. They are for SHTF, and its not a crown roast of vension I'm going to be playing for. I will never shoot at a deer at 300 yards. I am however glad that I got the chance to test my rifle and scope at a 500 yard range. (for the curious, the .270 works fine to 350 or so, then you need to get into serious hold over). Still the steel plates rang at 500 with an out of the box Ruger and a mid range (B@L) scope. Not too shabby if I do say so myself. Thing is, I would like to learn how to do this better. I can tell 75, from  100 yard just fine and do better than that at 15 vs 35, but at longer ranges (say 400-600 plus?). Well, thats why I'm on this board. I think range finders are good, but Guns, if I ever need to shoot at someting 600 yrds away, it won't be a deer and I don't want to trust my life to duracell. Not an argument, just my perspective on this. YMMV.
FQ13

FQ, I think your largely right in your position. Where you live I know it's very difficult to find spot where you could shoot over a 100yrds. I've hunted in Florida and I could rarely see more than 50 yards, and I don't typically won't shoot at deer over 300 yards many shots are much less, but in the western US what you think is 300 yards can easily be 500 or 800 yards. Shooting across ridges and clear cuts is very possible. Also for me if the SHTF I don't know that I'll stay home for very long. My place is not very defensible, I live in a small bowl, so there are to many high ground spots around my house. In all likely hood I will get the hell out of dodge if things go really bad for more than a couple days. I have the equipment and the skills that I know I can survive for quite some time in the mountains. And the battery doesn't have to last forever I can carry spares but when I get to wherever I'm going to holdup till things blow over, I'll build a range card for my DFP's. And if the battery does run out it's still good for a monocular. BTW I've owned mine for nearly 15 years and I've only replaced the battery once. It only runs the battery when your actively ranging something. So it runs for a very long time on one 9v battery.

[Badgersmilk]

I've had a Bushnell Elite 1500 that I've taken on MANY trips in the last two years.  Still running on the same 9v battery I put in it on day 1.  It has 7X magnification, and I can typically range things the size of a ground hog out to about 400 yards without much effort.  I've repeatedly ranged people out to 1,200 yards, but then it starts getting spotty as to if it will read correctly, or at all on a man size target at that range.  It usually takes about two seconds, maybe three to get a reading.  And if you can't get a good reading on your target at long range, you can usually find something bigger than them (a car) VERY close to them to get a reading off of.  

My "eyeballing it", "guesstimates" at the 600 yard and up ranges have at times been off by WAY more than I'd ever want to admit!  Absolutely I think if your going to do any shooting over 300 yards I think it's a great purchase for the average person.  I've also often used mine to set up quick target ranges in fields...  NICE!  And to me this use alone justifies the price to play!  

[billt]

As I said, the longer they range, the more expensive they are. Is this because of a more powerful Laser unit? If you are ranging to 600 yards would your reading be more accurate from a 1,500 yard unit, than from say a 600 yard unit that is reading close to it's max.?

For what it's worth, I read an interesting article about the Apollo 11 Moon Mission. They placed a type of Laser reflector on the Moon's surface as one of their experiments. To this day it is still in use by NASA. They say they can accurately record the distance from the Earth to the Moon + - 6 INCHES! I thought that was pretty amazing considering the technology that was available back then. Now it is affordable to all of us. And they say a lot of money was "wasted" on the space program. Sometimes people can be so dense.  Bill T.