I have a question about the health care bill

[tt11758]

Something ocurred to me this morning that I have yet to hear addressed regarding the health care debacle bill that was recently signed into law.

The law, as I understand it, will require people, under threat of prosecution, to purchase health insurance.  What about people who refuse to make that purchase for religious reasons?  Christian Scientists come to mind, but it could affect other religions, as well.  Are these people still going to be required to purchase health insurance, contrary to their religious beliefs?  If so, doesn't that render the law unconstitutional due to a violation of the First Amendment?

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

Those words seem pretty simple and unambiguous to me (but then, so does, "shall not be infringed").

Not being a student of Constitutional law, or a lawyer, I find this a fascinating scenario, and would be curious to see what others here think about the issue.  (God help me, I'm even talking about you, FQ)   

[Timothy]

These are the questions being asked by the States Governments that have file suit against this bill. 

More information will follow.  Here in MA, they can't prosecute you but they will withhold any deductions on your state income tax and prevent you from getting a tax refund.

[tt11758]

These are the questions being asked by the States Governments that have file suit against this bill. 

More information will follow.  Here in MA, they can't prosecute you but they will withhold any deductions on your state income tax and prevent you from getting a tax refund.

But isn't that, in itself, "prohibiting the free exercise" of those with religious reasons to decline?

[Timothy]

But isn't that, in itself, "prohibiting the free exercise" of those with religious reasons to decline?

I would think so, but up here, our rights aren't the concern of the state legislature.  They make it up as they go and if they don't do it, the Supreme Judicial Court will do it for them!

Romney signed the law, he didn't write it.  I do hold him responsible none the less!

[Teresa Heilevang]

Amish, Muslims to be excused from Obamacare mandate

The Senate health care bill just signed contains some exemptions to the "pay-or-play" mandate requiring purchase of Obamacare-approved health insurance or payment of a penalty fine. As Fox News has pointed out, for instance, the Amish are excused from the mandate:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/01/16/health-care-mandate-applies-amish/

    So while most Americans would be required to sign up with insurance companies or government insurance plans, the church would serve as something of an informal insurance plan for the Amish.

    Law experts say that kind of exemption withstands scrutiny.

    "Here the statute is going to say that people who are conscientiously opposed to paying for health insurance don't have to do it where the conscientious objection arises from religion," said Mark Tushnet a Harvard law professor. "And that's perfectly constitutional."


Apparently, this exemption will apply similarly to believers in Islam, which considers health insurance - and, for that matter, any form of risk insurance - to be haraam (forbidden).

Steve Gilbert of Sweetness & Light calls our attention to the probability that Muslims will also be exempt. According to a March 23 publication on an authoritative Islamic Web site managed by Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid, various fatwas (religious decrees) absolutely forbid Muslim participation in any sort of health care or other risk insurance:

http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/113924/insurance

   Health insurance is haraam like other types of commercial insurance, because it is based on ambiguity, gambling and riba (usury). This is what is stated in fatwas by the senior scholars.

    In Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa'imah (15/277) there is a quotation of a statement of the Council of Senior Scholars concerning the prohibition on insurance and why it is haraam:

   It says in Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa'imah (15/251):

        Firstly: Commercial insurance of all types is haraam because it involves ambiguity, riba, uncertainty, gambling and consuming people's wealth unlawfully, and other shar'i

        Secondly: It is not permissible for the Muslim to get involved with insurance companies by working in administration or otherwise, because working in them comes under the heading of cooperating in sin and transgression, and Allaah forbids that as He says: "but do not help one another in sin and transgression. And fear Allaah. Verily, Allaah is Severe in punishment"

        [al-Maa'idah 5:2]. End quote.


So, it turns out that observant Muslims are not only strictly forbidden from buying any health insurance under the ObamaCare mandate, but may also not even work for any company that provides such insurance or any other form of commercial insurance.

It is not made clear whether or not it is religiously okay to accept "free" non-insured medical care such as that offered in hospital ERs and to some who are covered by Medicaid.

[Sponsor]

[tt11758]

Ok, so they're exempt from buying the insurance.  But what about paying the extra taxes that will be required to keep the government care system afloat?  Isn't the compulsory taxation a violation of their religious freedoms?


Not trying to be argumentative, I'm just writing these thoughts as they occur to me.

[JC5123]

It seems to me that it shouldn't matter what your reasons are. I don't see how the government has ANY authority to force anyone to buy anything. I know that they are using the regulatory clause to get away with it, but haven't they already perverted this clause beyond recognition?

The way I understand it, the constitution grants congress the ability to regulate commerce between the states. This was simply so that you couldn't make a better deal to one state and not another. This was to keep things fair for any commerce that happened between the states. I can pretty much guarantee that the founders never meant for the feds to be able to regulate and tax every aspect of our lives.

I don't see how this monstrosity er wonderful bill could ever be constitutional.

[Timothy]

Not trying to be argumentative, I'm just writing these thoughts as they occur to me.

Well!  There's the problem!  The Government no longer requires conscious thought.

Stop it TT....

[Solus]

It is not made clear whether or not it is religiously okay to accept "free" non-insured medical care such as that offered in hospital ERs and to some who are covered by Medicaid.

I recently watched a video, probably posted here, where a woman reporter interviewed a Muslim cleric and one of the questions she asked him was why he accepted money form a system of government he wanted to overthrow.

His answer was basically  ....  Allah says to take the money.  If the infidels what to contribute to help us overthrow them, let them.

[r_w]

Well!  There's the problem!  The Government no longer requires conscious thought.

Stop it TT....

In fact, it is prohibited.


The fact that they have already excluded certain religious groups in the bill makes it obvious they know it is wrong.  They just excluded the groups with the best lobbyists (which points to another problem).