Author Topic: A Question About Cops and Shotguns  (Read 3411 times)

fightingquaker13

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A Question About Cops and Shotguns
« on: May 03, 2010, 02:36:33 PM »
I was browsing throug Gubroker today looking for a shotgun sling for my Maverick and I got to wishing I hadn't sold my old Mossy 590. Here's the question. Why do most PDs issue Remington 870s and not Mossberg  590s? Off the top of my head the mossy has a very nice ghost ring sight, an ambidexterous saftey, 8+1 capacity, a speed feed stock, swivel mounts and a parkerized finish. This would, to me, make it seem like the ideal issue gun. Yet the 870 is preferred. Why?
FQ13

dipisc

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Re: A Question About Cops and Shotguns
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2010, 04:11:27 PM »
Hello;

     Just my .02 worth. Most police depts have to submit to the town/city leaders on what they want to buy/replace in the equipment areas.

     1; Most people/towns go with low bidder

     2;    IF   you have someone on the board who knows anything about firearms, they tend to stay with "brand name" items and tend to not want a   Delta Force  image.

     3; If the Mossbergs were bought , then the police would want to try the "shot the lock" door entry - this would involve many rounds of shot shells being fired and that would piss off the bean counters.

     4; most communities have the " it won't happen here" mentality - so why buy that "assault" shot gun.

ratcatcher55

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Re: A Question About Cops and Shotguns
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2010, 05:08:09 PM »
At one time,  70's , the Mossbergs had a very bad habit of having the safety break.  That was a red flag for some folks right at the start.

Saying that I like the newer Mossbergs because I shoot lefthanded and the safety is easier to engage or disengage.  I like them much better than the Ithacas.

Fatman

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Re: A Question About Cops and Shotguns
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2010, 06:48:48 PM »
870 is just the epitome of tried and true, that's why.
Anti: I think some of you gentleman would choose to apply a gun shaped remedy to any problem or potential problem that presented itself? Your reverance (sic) for firearms is maintained with an almost religious zeal. The mind boggles! it really does...

Me: Naw, we just apply a gun-shaped remedy to those extreme life threatening situations that call for it. All the less urgent problems we're willing to discuss.

m25operator

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Re: A Question About Cops and Shotguns
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2010, 07:38:08 PM »
The Police 870 is different than the sporting 870, ever notice a police model, with no screw in chokes, bead sight and matte finish is 275.00 to 300.00, versus a screw in choke 870 express at 189.00 at Wally World. It is due to a device called a flexi-tab, in the case of a shell latch failure, ( a condition where the magazine lets a new shell enter the shell lifter, with the bolt closed ) the shell lifter will flex, and go ahead and feed it, just like a Benelli M1 super 90. On a standard 870, you would have to push the shell back into the magazine before it would cycle. If there is no slot cut into the shell lifter, for a key or screwdriver to push the shell in, this can be real fun.

I do not know if Mossie has this ability.
" The Pact, to defend, if not TO AVENGE '  Tarna the Tarachian.

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Re: A Question About Cops and Shotguns
« Reply #5 on: Today at 05:57:28 PM »

twyacht

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Re: A Question About Cops and Shotguns
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2010, 07:51:01 PM »
Can't have no Swedish Flag on an American LEO's Shotgun,....Certainly different with handguns,...but a shotgun for Police Duty....

Ithaca made a riot LEO version for a long time also, but it's (just like the IRS recent order),....Remington.

870 is just the epitome of tried and true, that's why.

I'll second that... ;D
Thomas Jefferson: The strongest reason for the people to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against the tyranny of government. That is why our masters in Washington are so anxious to disarm us. They are not afraid of criminals. They are afraid of a populace which cannot be subdued by tyrants."
Col. Jeff Cooper.

Solus

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Re: A Question About Cops and Shotguns
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2010, 07:53:17 PM »
The Police 870 is different than the sporting 870, ever notice a police model, with no screw in chokes, bead sight and matte finish is 275.00 to 300.00, versus a screw in choke 870 express at 189.00 at Wally World. It is due to a device called a flexi-tab, in the case of a shell latch failure, ( a condition where the magazine lets a new shell enter the shell lifter, with the bolt closed ) the shell lifter will flex, and go ahead and feed it, just like a Benelli M1 super 90. On a standard 870, you would have to push the shell back into the magazine before it would cycle. If there is no slot cut into the shell lifter, for a key or screwdriver to push the shell in, this can be real fun.

I do not know if Mossie has this ability.

On a 590 the lifter is held in the raised position when the bolt is closed and it's end would block a shell from leaving the mag.

This is a feature touted as better than the 870 because your thumb tip doesn't get caught in the mag when the shell clears the the pressed up lift and it descends behind your bent thumb.

I found this problem can be avoided with the 870 if you turn your thumb sideways when inserting the shell.

The problem the flexi-tab solves would still exist.


Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!"
—Patrick Henry

"Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
— Daniel Webster

billt

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Re: A Question About Cops and Shotguns
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2010, 10:57:25 PM »
As far as I am aware of, these are the actual differences between the Wingmaster, the Police, and the Express guns:

The Express is Remington's "budget" gun, made to compete with the cheaper to make Winchester and Mossberg guns.

The Wingmaster is Remington "Cadillac" top-of-the-line sporting gun.

The Police is a Wingmaster with a dull finish and is a much more carefully inspected and built gun.

How Remington lowered the Express price was to reduce hand labor to a bare minimum, and to eliminate much of the polishing and de-burring the better quality Wingmaster and Police guns get.

The Express is basically the same forged and milled steel receiver and heavy-duty internals gun the better 870's are, just in a rougher, less well finished form with plastic and MIM, (Molded Injection Metal), parts. This is a process similar to die casting.

The Express Model has:
A plastic trigger group.
The dimples in the mag tube and the new style plastic magazine retention system, EXCEPT on the extended magazine version, which does NOT have the dimples.
A rougher finish inside and outside, with machine marks and some burrs left.
A rougher, bead blasted blue job.
A less polished bore.
A two piece barrel. (not 100% sure about this)
Hardwood or synthetic stock, with a sporting-length fore end and pressed-in checkering.
The Defense version has 18", Cylinder bore barrel, with a bead sight.
Some Metal Injection Molded (MIM) parts, like the extractor.
Has the locking safety button.

The Wingmaster has:
An aluminum trigger group.
The old style magazine retention system.
A much smoother finish inside and out, no machine marks or burrs.
The Wingmaster gun receives a higher level of inspection and finishing.
A fine, commercial polished blue finish.
A polished bore.
A one piece barrel.
A chrome plated bolt.
Walnut stocks with the famous "Bowling Pin" finish in gloss or satin and better checkering.
Wide choices in barrel lengths and choke options.
No use of MIM parts, the extractor is milled.
The Wingmaster is the full top-of-the-line commercial Remington pump gun, and is priced accordingly.

The 870 Police has:
An aluminum trigger group.
The old style magazine retention system.
A much smoother finish inside and out, no machine marks or burrs.
The Police gun receives a higher level of inspection and finishing.
A military-grade parkerized finish.
A polished bore.
A one piece barrel.
Walnut or synthetic stock, with a short police-length fore end.
The Remington “R3” super recoil pad that reduced felt recoil by 30%.
Choices in different stocks, including Speedfeed, and others.
18" to 20" improved cylinder barrel, with a wide choice in sights, including rifle, ghost ring, and luminous.
Police options like magazine extenders, forearms with built-in lights, and sling swivels.
Heavy-duty magazine spring.
Heavy-duty trigger-sear spring.
Sling swivel mounts.
No use of MIM parts, the extractor is milled.

The Express is a "bottom of the line" budget gun, the Wingmaster is a "top of the line" sporting gun, the Police is the top-of-the-line in defense guns.
The 870's are generally considered to be the finest quality pump gun made.

Here's what Remington says about their Police guns:

REMINGTON ARMS COMPANY, LE DIVISION
Important differences between Remington 870 Police and 870 Express shotguns
The 870 Express has been an important part of Remington’s offering to the sporting market.
It was designed to meet a price point in the commercial market while still providing classic 870 functionality.
All of Remington’s 870’s have interchangeable parts, even if they have cosmetic differences.
It is also important to note that many manufacturers use the 870 Express platform for their Police / Combat models.
Without exception, every manufacturer who utilizes our 870 platform serves to upgrade their system to a more efficient, street worthy platform.
While the 870 Express is still an 870, the best pump shotgun on the market, there are some very important cosmetic and functional differences between it and the 870 Police.
To our customers in Law Enforcement, Military, Corrections, and Security, whose lives depend upon the unfailing performance of Remington shotguns, the Police modifications are of paramount importance. Synopses of the variances are provided below.

• 870 Police shotguns go through a special 23 station check list – ranging from visual inspection, functional testing, test firing, and final inspection.

• All Police shotguns are assembled in a “special build area” at the plant in Ilion, NY. This section is secured and serves only to build LE and Military shotguns, with the same factory personnel working at that assignment each shift.

• All parts that enter the “special build area” are visually inspected by hand to ensure top quality and functionality.

• Due to heavy recoil in buck and slug loads, all 870 Police guns have a longer magazine spring which ensures positive feed and function.

• A heavier sear spring is used to generate a reliable, positive trigger pull between 5 and 8 lbs.

• A heavier carrier dog spring is used to ensure when the carrier elevates the shell, it will be held there until the bolt can push it into the chamber. This ensures positive feeding when using heavier payload rounds.

• Police shotguns do not have an ISS (Integrated Safety System) which is a locking mechanism on the safety of commercial shotguns. This type of locking mechanism can cause delay to an officer who needs the weapon but does not have the appropriate key. LE shotguns have the standard, proven, cross bolt safety.

• The fore-end on the Express model is longer and not compatible with many police shotgun vehicle racks.

• The Police shotguns utilize the heavy duty SPEEDFEED Stocks and Fore-ends.

• The Express model will not allow for the addition of an extension tube without physical modification to the tube and barrel, which can nullify the warranty.

• The Express model has a BEAD BLAST BLUE finish while the Police models utilize either High Luster bluing or Parkerization.

• The Express model utilizes a synthetic trigger housing while the Police models use a compressed metal housing.

• The Police shotgun barrel is locked down with a “ball detent” system in conjunction with the magazine cap vs. a lesser grade “synthetic magazine spring retainer” lock down as used on the Express system.

• The receivers used in Police guns are “vibra honed” to smooth out rough finishes and remove burrs before parkerization or bluing.

• Police shotguns use machined ejectors and extractors, as opposed to powdered metal cast which are utilized on the Express models.

As far as the Mossberg line, they have had government contracts, but I don't know the criteria that had to be met to satisfy them. About the only drawback I see to the Mossberg guns is the Aluminum receiver being less durable over time. This however didn't affect the durability of the M-16, so it is more of a personal issue with me. I like steel in guns, and Remington is still one of the few left that mass produce shotguns with steel receivers these days.  Bill T.
   

Texas_Bryan

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Re: A Question About Cops and Shotguns
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2010, 11:29:25 PM »
Bill, you wrote to much to read bud. ;)  The Texas DPS, Highway Patrol, recently, a couple months back, bought several hundred 590A1 to issue to troopers and evaluate their capabilities.  There.  Happy? ;D

Rob10ring

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Re: A Question About Cops and Shotguns
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2010, 11:41:03 PM »
Bill, you wrote to much to read bud. ;)  The Texas DPS, Highway Patrol, recently, a couple months back, bought several hundred 590A1 to issue to troopers and evaluate their capabilities.  There.  Happy? ;D

… and NYPD recently purchased a bunch of shorty 590's.

 

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