An honest, but difficult question(why are we committing cultural suicide)?

[fightingquaker13]

This is something that has bugged me for a while, but finally came to the fore in regards to the cop pulling a gun on a knife wielding yahoo thread. The Target store was apparently a "gun free zone". A thousand other threads, from gun control, knife control and "zero tolerance" policies both here and in Europe and Oz have come up. We've seen posts from the Brady Bunch about their fear of entering a Starbucks or going to DC if people are allowed to exercise their constitutional rights. Most of Europe, with a few exceptions, has disarmed itself.
The question of the hour is this.
Why is it that when a civilization (here I am refering to the west in genral) has developed a wealthy, law abiding, prosperous and  free society, it forgets its own values, the ones that made it great, and proceeds to emasculate itself? Our history was one of expanding freedom. We got economic freedom, the right to vote, held the elite to the law, extended those rights to women and minorities, allowed morality to enter into FP and guranteed a free society at home. Then we began to oppress ourselves. Apologizing for everyhing, disarming ourselves, in every nation but the US, and then we still disarmed ourselves in parts of it, all but giving up the basic human right to self defense in the interest of an illusive safety. We seem to think that its unseemly to defend ourselves physically, or intellectually. Darwin may never met a species that thought it was immoral to defend itself, but I do know how he'd rate its chances. WTF? How did we get to the point of all but signing a suicide pact when we are at the height of our power; culturally, scientifically, physically and militarily? No other civilization has come close to touching the advancements the average Westerner takes for granted. Yet we won't defend these moral and scientific achievments  or even ourselves? Why not? And don't just blame the liberals or the extreme right wing yahoos on talk radio.. The real question is why are they persuasive? It ain't just teachers and the MSM either, or corporations, or greed, or the desire to avoid necessary conflict either. We've had these things for a long time. Its only in the last 30 years or so that we've had this mindset. Comments? Thoughts?
FQ13  

[tombogan03884]

FQ, this goes back to things like the Haymarket Square bombing in Chicago.
Socialism in America has a long history in America and the CPUSA was the most loyal to Moscow of all the foreign parties.
But their proven methods in Europe didn't work here,  when they tried to organize unions they got their butts kicked by Organized crime, When they organized Unions on the Docks, the Mob let them, Then took over again.
How did Lucky Luciano protect the docks of NY during WWII ?  By using the Unions originated by Socialists but ruled by the Mafia .
But Lenin wrote "Give us the young for 8 years and they will be Bolsheviks for life"
So the socialist movement turned to fields they were more suited to. Education and Law.
This does answer your question but it's 4 AM and I'm tired  

[Solus]

FQ, this goes back to things like the Haymarket Square bombing in Chicago.
Socialism in America has a long history in America and the CPUSA was the most loyal to Moscow of all the foreign parties.
But their proven methods in Europe didn't work here,  when they tried to organize unions they got their butts kicked by Organized crime, When they organized Unions on the Docks, the Mob let them, Then took over again.
How did Lucky Luciano protect the docks of NY during WWII ?  By using the Unions originated by Socialists but ruled by the Mafia .
But Lenin wrote "Give us the young for 8 years and they will be Bolsheviks for life"
So the socialist movement turned to fields they were more suited to. Education and Law.
This does answer your question but it's 4 AM and I'm tired  

Absolutely correct.

We all rant about how stupid and illogical the administrators are in enforcing the Zero Tolerance policy is in our schools, but the real danger is that it seeds the young with the outlook that guns, pictures of guns, talk of guns, even making a finger gun is a vile wrong.

It would be a good investment in our future if we were to start to take back the schools.

[fightingquaker13]

Absolutely correct.

We all rant about how stupid and illogical the administrators are in enforcing the Zero Tolerance policy is in our schools, but the real danger is that it seeds the young with the outlook that guns, pictures of guns, talk of guns, even making a finger gun is a vile wrong.

It would be a good investment in our future if we were to start to take back the schools.

Maybe. But yet every third movie, rap video and TV show, has the hero (often a vigilante type on the outs with the cops, or just a  straight up thug in rap music) popping caps. Hell, the Fox networks, home of conservatives? I just finshed watching"Jusified" on FX (not the fox News Network, but they all share the same paycheck and work for the same boss). A good show, but by my count the first episode someone din't get shot or laiid. Point is, if there is a conspiracy? The usual suspects, Hollywood, the music and video game industry's and liberal teachers? They are sending very mixed messages. Lets try again, because that doesn't hold water. Zero tolerence or Grand Theft Auto? You can't have it both ways.
FQ13

[Solus]

Maybe. But yet every third movie, rap video and TV show, has the hero (often a vigilante type on the outs with the cops, or just a  straight up thug in rap music) popping caps. Hell, the Fox networks, home of conservatives? I just finshed watching"Jusified" on FX (not the fox News Network, but they all share the same paycheck and work for the same boss). A good show, but by my count the first episode someone din't get shot or laiid. Point is, if there is a conspiracy? The usual suspects, Hollywood, the music and video game industry's and liberal teachers? They are sending very mixed messages. Lets try again, because that doesn't hold water. Zero tolerence or Grand Theft Auto? You can't have it both ways.
FQ13

Don't believe I mentioned anything but the use of the education system to foster a revulsion to firearms and that was in support of the same system being used to instill cultural values in the young, so I'm fine with giving up any ownership of anything to to with Grand Theft Auto.

 

[Sponsor]

[fightingquaker13]

My point is this. Its common on the right to blame the "cultural elite" who ever they are, for being the root of all evil. If we use the O'Reilly/Limbaugh scale for identifying these folks what we find is this. Teachers, profs, Hollywood, music, video games, feminazis and the gay rights movement. My point is that these guys and gals are sending conflicting signals becuse they aren't on the same page. This tells me the problem lies elsewhere. Lets look further to find the problem.
FQ13 

[Solus]

My point is this. Its common on the right to blame the "cultural elite" who ever they are, for being the root of all evil. If we use the O'Reilly/Limbaugh scale for identifying these folks what we find is this. Teachers, profs, Hollywood, music, video games, feminazis and the gay rights movement. My point is that these guys and gals are sending conflicting signals becuse they aren't on the same page. This tells me the problem lies elsewhere. Lets look further to find the problem.
FQ13 

I am not blaming them. I am just saying it is effective and we need to put our own guys in there and do it first. 

I have seen enough to know the effectiveness of early education, indoctrination if you prefer, in forming a person's belief system and while it can be overcome, it will be very difficult.

 

[Pathfinder]

The thing that really annoys the hell out of me is that Socialism was a movement to protest the EMPIRE and class systems of the European gummints. It is totally inappropriate for a free society based on individual achievement. It has morphed into a one-world movement tho, and in that it is inherently dangerous.

Solus had a great point - take back the schools.

1. Get rid of the zero-tolerance crap, screen every damn textbook used (most history or social sciences don't go back more than 1950 in anything but a cursory manner) to make sure it teaches our kids knowledge and how to acquire it instead of the regurgitated propaganda and pablum they get now

2. Fire every overpaid administrator (the principal of the HS in Illinois my boys went to 10 years ago was making $150G for a HS that lost 25-33% of their kids from Freshman to Senior year- and there were 2.5 monitor screens of single spaced names of all HS personnel who made over 100G) who refuses to go along with the new rules.

3. Get the legislators to pass laws limiting the liability of schools, admins and the boards; companies can do it, police depts. have it, why not protect the schools except in the case of egregious fault?

4. Stop making 5th graders carry 20# of textbooks home every night and back to school again in the morning - that will kill desire to learn quicker than anything else

5. Make the schools and the teachers accountable for the kids' performances. This is the one thing the No Child Left Behind act had right, and it scared the crap out of the NEA

6. Bust the NEA on RICO charges.

Dealing with Hollyweird's perversions of America and the American ideal (which I think is driven more by greed derived from pandering to the darker sides of this culture, although pretty boy wankers like Penn and Clooney are politically driven) is another conversation - Schools first.

[m25operator]

I do agree that school is the cornerstone of what we need and what we have lost, of course beginning in Pre K, and elementary and I hate middle school, for reasons I will say later. The developmental yrs are the youngest, getting conflicting views from your teachers ( if the student even cares ) vs your parents. If the student is trying to apply him or her self, and wants to excel, then its go by the book and make A grades, even if it is contrary to what your parents teach, that go's to religion, philosophy, and AMERICANISM. That's right, knowing our own history and being proud, not ambivalent to it. My youngest sister ( who is now a hard nosed English teacher, in Zapata Tx, right on the border of TX and MX ) when I was younger was watching the Holocaust with the rest of us, late 80's mini series. She asked, what was the Holocaust anyway, this blew me away, I was taught, and new the casualties, the reasoning and the history of what occurred, and why, who the characters were in Germany, France, Japan and America. I asked her what she was taught, her reply, We had a war, and we won. We nuked Japan, End of story. This is when I 1st started worrying about the future from the younger generation. The young people are not given enough intel/history to make decisions on there own that is informed. With the internet, if they chose, they can research anything they were blurry or unsatisfied about. When I was a kiddo, it was the encyclopedia Britannica. Mom or Dad to me, GO LOOK IT UP!!!

Now middle school, who thought up this idea, 6th graders go up, and 9th graders go up, there in my mind is a GREAT difference, in emotional maturity, from 6th graders and 7th graders, and physical maturity in 9th graders vs 10th to 12th graders.  When I went to high school, as a 10th grader, I was 16, had a drivers license and a car/motorcycle, = freedom of mobility, and was a varsity track runner. For most of us, the area between 15 and 16 years of age, at 15, smaller than you will be at 16, and as a male, immature compared to older students, as a female, budding and beautiful, and Prey for the older male students, but if the freshmans had been kept in junior high between 9th and 10th, would have gained some maturity. They would have been on semi equal footing with the sophs and the seniors when they became sophs. They could also avoid getting into cliques, that they don't belong, if 90% can drive, then you can stay in your younger clique, function with people in your own situation, and just go to school. At least with a better choice between being preyed upon by older and better equipped males, meaning they have cars and jobs, vs, guy you have known for who knows, life to several yrs. Now day's, girls drive guys around, go figure.

I think the old PTA, needs to have more teeth, in these times, if they don't like whats going on, then they can vote a teacher, principle out, nuff said, to hell with the teachers union...

[tombogan03884]

2 things need to go.
No teachers Union
No Tenure.

FQ, pm me this weekend with a reminder and I will go into the connections as I see them.