Back Up Power For Going "Off Grid" ?

[Bidah]

Bidah,

Do you use Mobil 1 ? If so what weight? It gets very hot here in the Summer months, which is the likely time for a power outage because of the severe Monsoon electrical storms we get in July and August, not to mention power demand is also at it's peak then.   Bill T.

I dislike wading into the oil wars..  I have used Mobil 1 in a few cases, but I have been an Amsoil guy for 30+ years.  No I am not a dealer either.  I use 0w-30, but I am more concerned about working/starting at 30 to 40 below zero than working in hot weather.  I used to live in Glendale, so I remember. I would guess that in your case you would need a 20w-50 oil. I consider Mobil 1 a good Synthetic that is fairly easy to find, which is why I will use it now and then for certain things.  An excellent quality filter will also help too as it will do a better job of trapping the junk.

An electrician to install the transfer switch is a must in a lot of localities.  Not a bad idea if you are grid tied either.  Figuring out your load needs will take some time though.

-Bidah

[ellis4538]

I'm leaning toward a permanent installation myself.  Have had outages at all the wrong times...twice when I was recovering from surgery and had to try to pull start  a generator, once when getting ready to take my wife to the Dr. after open heart...  I want mine to run everything, especially the well pump and sump pumps.  The generator is only about $2500.  I haven't priced propane or NG hoopkup or installation but it ain't cheap but it is better than having the basement flood and having water to flush!

JMHO

Richard

[twyacht]

10.5 kw, based on the OP, at 240 volts for your appliances, AC, Freezer, stove,...unless you have a gas stove, and gas water htr, will barely be enough, especially when you include your 120 loads. Lights, standard fridge, TV's. etc,....

10,500 watts at 240VAC is 43.75 amps on a 50 amp service.

Than throw in your 1500-2500 watt microwave, at 120VAC is 12.5 to15 amps.... 1/3 of your capacity just for the micro. Than your A/C, is it a 2 ton unit? the compressor has inrush over 25amps, than settles down to about 1/3 of that.

Dryer? looking at 18-22 amps. at 240.....

Lights? TV? Your fridge pulls 4amps, but the compressor ramps it up to about 8.5amps.

Deep Freezer, and other constant running items, nibble away at your capacity, and 10.5 ain't enough.

You'll need an itemized list of items you can't live without, get the wattage, divide by the voltage, and record the amps.

It ain't the volts, it's the amps that give you capacity to run stuff you want.

Your going to be in the 22.5 to 55 kw, range, or higher, and still utilizing load mgt. to turn off some stuff, when you run other stuff.

I kicked around inverters, and golf cart batteries, via a seamless transfer switch on the survival thread, and a gen. Rotating your loads from inverter to gen also gives you a chance to cut the noise down at night, run your fridge, freezer, etc,... couple of lights, and listen for the zombies.

Than fire the genset up in the morning, and recharge your batteries.

Like guns billt.....How bad do you want to run everything in your house?, and how much do you want to spend.

They have portable "trailers" for the larger gens. You'll need a 4-wheeler, or truck to move it though.

Let me know if I can send you some load calculating checksheets,. simple math once you get the info off the stuff you want to have running, and what it will take to run it.

[billt]

My dryer and water heater is gas, but my stove is electric. The "must have" items I would want to run would be A/C and pool pump, and Fridge / Freezer, along with a few lights so as not to trip over anything. From there I could trade off if necessary. For example if I had to kill the A/C for a half hour to run the stove, so be it. As you said, like guns or anything else there is no end to this. Perhaps a 4,000 H.P. Caterpillar V-16 so when the A/C kicks on from all of the heat my arc welder is generating, I'll be good to go!      Bill T.

[m25operator]

Lots of good talk going on here, but wait or ask TW, Yachts use all this stuff, and from our conversations, he can tell you chapter and verse, not to mention inverters and DC power for lighting, DC lighting will last longer, and keep an eye on DC, Led lighting, it is coming and will make a huge difference in power usage.

[Sponsor]

[twyacht]

Here's a suggestion billt.

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en&expIds=17259,18167,20782,25522,26637,26992,27023&sugexp=ldymls&xhr=t&q=house+generators&cp=10&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=1681191177918520788&ei=jD2-TKf3BcP_lgew-YXmBw&sa=X&oi=product_catalog_result&ct=result&resnum=3&sqi=2&ved=0CD4Q8wIwAg#

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en&expIds=17259,18167,20782,25522,26637,26992,27023&sugexp=ldymls&xhr=t&q=house+generators&cp=10&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=2208713315638286327&ei=jD2-TKf3BcP_lgew-YXmBw&sa=X&oi=product_catalog_result&ct=result&resnum=2&sqi=2&ved=0CDoQ8wIwAQ#

Right around $4000.00 +/- It would run your house. Bolt it to a utility trailer, arc weld away...

The three fuel option, may cost more but is a great resource. You'll be the only house with lights on, kickin back cleaning your 1,745 firearms, eating ice cream in winter...

[billt]

Thanks TW. If you had to guess off the top of your head, based on what you know. About how much do you think installation and set up would run on units like the ones you have linked? I could run the gas line and get a slab poured, but there is no way I would try to tackle the electrical set up. Much too involved for me. Also, pardon my electrical ignorance, but I'm assuming 20 KW equates to 20,000 watts, correct? If so that really seems like a good buy in relationship to the power it provides  Bill T.

[twyacht]

Thanks TW. If you had to guess off the top of your head, based on what you know. About how much do you think installation and set up would run on units like the ones you have linked? I could run the gas line and get a slab poured, but there is no way I would try to tackle the electrical set up. Much too involved for me. Also, pardon my electrical ignorance, but I'm assuming 20 KW equates to 20,000 watts, correct? If so that really seems like a good buy in relationship to the power it provides  Bill T.

Hey billt, the electrical is pretty straight fwd., either "seamless/auto", or "manual/break before make" switching. That's up to you.

The output leads on the gen will attach to your main power feeds,  from the electric company's meter via a breaker. Probably 150-200 amp.

With seamless transfer or auto,

If the power goes out, there is a "sense" lead that will send an auto signal to start the gen, usually a programmable time of about 10 to 30 seconds. The auto switch, will "lock out" the electric companies feeds, and your house will come back to life on gen.

If the power comes back on, you can opt for an auto transfer, or a manual switchover. Yes this costs a few hundred bucks more, labor and materials. but it is an option.

In Manual, the power goes out, you go to the remote start pad, start gen, open or"lock out" the electric companies 200 amp breaker, and close or "activate" the gen output breaker. This goes right to your main panel and your house turns back on. Reversed when the power comes back on. Cheaper, easier, less labor intensive, less materials involved, but manual. No big deal.

If you can get your gen close to your fuel supply, and/or main panel, this will reduce cost also. But not a big deal.

I would keep the gen start/stop and transfer breakers in my house, garage, for security, and for a perm install, if you flood, or could flood, have your gen raised on a frame.

You will have to do maintenance "runs" to make sure your gen starts and runs, usually once or twice a month, for an hour or two. Just don't let it sit for months and than "hope" it starts when you need it.

Ballpark, electrical install, depending on bells and whistles should be around or less than $1000 for labor and materials by a licensed contractor. Easily.

Probably even less for a manual version.

You are correct in the 20kw=20,000watts.

Hope this helps, it's a great option for "off grid" power, although if you have neighbors, and the power stays out for a while, they will be coming over...

[blackwolfe]

I have a friend that has a hunting camp in the middle of nowhere in Michigan's upper peninsula.  There is no grid power and never has been and currently is not even available.

When he aquired the property there where two stationary diesel generator sets present.  One is a 4 cylinder John Deere powered unit, and the other is  an old 2 cylider Lister powered gen set.  The Deere engine is the same as used in some of Deere's backhoes.  The Lister is really sweet.  It uses about 1/4 the fuel per hour as the Deere.  The Listers have a good reputation and from what I can tell are extremely reliable and run forever.  If I were to go off grid or lived in a more rural area I would love to have one.  They seem to be somewhat hard to find and pricey.

Don't know much about them, but seems to be some good information here:
 http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php

[TAB]

You are going to need a big genset if you want to run a ac.    If you are on a well,  or have a "san pump"  you want to make sure those are powered.


avoid the multifuel versions if you can help it.   Most require you to swap out parts in the carb for you to change fuels.  Not something you want to do in a power outage, even more so if its cuased by a storm or in your case a heat wave.