Springfield: New Model - Range Officer

[fightingquaker13]

I looked at several Rock Island guns when I was up at J&G Sales purchasing some AK-47's a while back. They are what they are, a rough cut $400.00 pistol. You can't put them into the $1,000.00+ class guns. The edges were very sharp, and the metal work was rough and crude, with tool marks too numerous to mention. The cost in metal work is in the finishing. Regardless if you're making guns or frying pans. The higher degree of fit and finish, the more the gun will cost. The process of manufacturing a 1911 is the same for Les Baer as it is for Rock Island. One is crudely banged out in the Philippines by what amounts to under paid slave labor, while the other is painstakingly hand finished and fitted here by skilled craftsman and pistolsmiths. The cost of the weapons reflect that. No more, no less.

I'm not slamming the Rock Island guns. You may get a good one, or you may not. It is much the same with Taurus, but a little less so. That is because of the manufacturing process, along with what it involves, more so than where that process takes place.  Bill T.

Not offering an argument, just a question. Will the Rock Island go bang everytime you pull thre trigger and deliver shots to point of aim? If I can feed it crap and get four inch groups at 10 yards out of the box, I'll buy it. If not, I'll pass. Thoughts?
FQ13

[Walter45Auto]

Not offering an argument, just a question. Will the Rock Island go bang everytime you pull thre trigger and deliver shots to point of aim? If I can feed it crap and get four inch groups at 10 yards out of the box, I'll buy it. If not, I'll pass. Thoughts?
FQ13

For the record, mine always has gone bang, fed anything, and hit where the sights are lined up. I didn't have it brand new, but a friend of mine says that his RI has always fed/gone bang, and been just as accurate as mine.

[billt]

Not offering an argument, just a question. Will the Rock Island go bang everytime you pull thre trigger and deliver shots to point of aim? If I can feed it crap and get four inch groups at 10 yards out of the box, I'll buy it. If not, I'll pass. Thoughts?
FQ13

"Going bang" doesn't make the weapon anywhere near the same quality. But to answer your question, yes, it will go bang. At least hopefully. Much like a Toyota Yaris will get you to the same place in the same amount of time, on the same roads a Chevrolet Z-06 Corvette will. But you can hardly compare the two based on that alone.  Bill T.

[fightingquaker13]

"Going bang" doesn't make the weapon anywhere near the same quality. But to answer your question, yes, it will go bang. At least hopefully. Much like a Toyota Yaris will get you to the same place in the same amount of time, on the same roads a Chevrolet Z-06 Corvette will. But you can hardly compare the two based on that alone.  Bill T.

Then do you compare them on? I always wondered why anyone would want to buy a 160 mph car for a 70 mph speed limit.
FQ13 who very much gets your point. I just had to ask.

[billt]

Because I've worked in the metals industry for so many years, I compare most guns on fit and finish. I realize a military weapon isn't going to exhibit the same quality of metal work a $1,300.00 target pistol is, but looking at a Mauser I can see the amount of work that went into the machining of it's action as opposed to a generic, component gun like an AR-15, which I feel are very overpriced for what you get. With that said, if you like AR-15 rifles, (and I do), you don't have much choice except to pay the price. But looking at a Smith & Wesson Model 41 .22 Target Pistol, which is made from 100% blued steel and Walnut, I can see where the $1,100.00 went. In looking at the average M-4 that sells for about the same, I can't.

In looking at a base model Browning Citori for the same $1,100.00 price point, I can't believe they can sell them for that and make a profit when you consider the machining and hand fitting involved. Another great buy in today's market are the Remington 1187 / 1100 / 870 series of shotguns. This is based on the fact they are one of the few models left that are made with machined steel receivers, not Aluminum. Browning dropped the Auto-V years ago because of the high machining costs associated with it's all steel construction. I bought one for Melanie back in the mid 90's, right before they discontinued them. I paid $650.00 for it brand new at Wal-Mart. It turned out to be one of my better buys. That is a gun I can get pleasure out of by just looking at it and handling it. The workmanship in relationship to the price is phenomenal. A lot of these guns are on borrowed time. The S&W Model 41 I mentioned is one. Sadly I think the Marlin 39-A is another. It has a great and loyal following. I just hope it's enough to keep it in production. The Colt Python went down because of it's cost to manufacture.

A lot of the high end 1911's are the same. They require a lot of hand fitting and polishing to complete. I love Glocks, but they have no "soul". They are a gun that is built to go bang regardless of conditions. That they do very well. But they are hardly an heirloom. Nice 1911's are for play, and to be handled and admired with a glass of Brandy by the fireplace. Glocks are for work. That's how I see it anyway. As always, your mileage may vary.   Bill T.

[Sponsor]

[McGyver]

I don't care WHAT you two say about RIA. I bought mine new and have over 1000rds. thru it without as much of a hiccup! 

Who needs a carry gun that you gotta worrying about putting a scratch on, anyway? 

[fightingquaker13]

I one hundred percent agree Billt. The trade I regret most is getting rid of a Python for a Glock. I panicked and thought "now or never" for a semi auto. I figured I could always buy a new Python when I got $600 togther.  Wrong answer. The same is true of my shotguns. I love SxS bird guns. I can't afford the fancy stuff, but the "working" models of the high end manufacturers? Like you, I can't see how they turn a profit. I've traded a few back and forth over the years trying to find the one that fit me. I've settled on a Parker VH and a Merkel model 8. Blue collar guns compared to their more esteemed bretheren. But the workmanship is the same. How those guys made money I'll never understand. They are works of art. My Glock? Its just a thing. I love it for its functionality, but beyond that? You'd be hard pressed to get me to say much good about it other than the teniffer coating. That alone is praise worthy.
FQ13

[fightingquaker13]

I don't care WHAT you two say about RIA. I bought mine new and have over 1000rds. thru it without as much of a hiccup! 

Who needs a carry gun that you gotta worrying about putting a scratch on, anyway? 

What two? I agree. In a carry gun, I just want it to work and be hassel free in terms of care. I agree with Bill about toys (which for me are bird guns), but for the real deal? I want the most durable and reliable thing out there at the lowest price.
FQ13

[McGyver]

What two? I agree. In a carry gun, I just want it to work and be hassel free in terms of care. I agree with Bill about toys (which for me are bird guns), but for the real deal? I want the most durable and reliable thing out there at the lowest price.
FQ13

I was half-fast aiming that at billt, since he only "hopes" it'll go bang. I haven't seen nor heard of one NOT going bang yet except for the .40cal. with an extended extractor. (they may go bang when ya DON'T want 'em to!)   

[billt]

I was half-fast aiming that at billt, since he only "hopes" it'll go bang. I haven't seen nor heard of one NOT going bang yet except for the .40cal. with an extended extractor. (they may go bang when ya DON'T want 'em to!)  

I have nothing against Rock Island Armory guns. But there is no getting around they are what they are, a $450.00 1911. No more, no less. I would even consider buying one if I had that sort of need for a "knock about" 1911, but I don't. If I require that sort of gun a Glock can do better for roughly the same price with a much better performance record. To me buying a cheap 1911 is a bit like buying a fake Rolex. I don't mean that as a slam, just as an analogy of meaning getting something for less than it was designed to be made and sold for.

In today's market a "bare bones" 1911 requires about $650.00 to $750.00 worth of skill, talent, and machining to produce on modern equipment to a degree where as you can uncase and shoot it with a variety of different ammunition without concerning yourself with possible operational issues that might plague lesser guns. And even that is certainly no guarantee. Again, not meant as a slam, just keeping things relative. The "new" Remington R-1911 is a good example of such a gun. I understand that cost and money is of great concern in today's economy. But if I want a 1911, I don't want one that could be built of substandard quality. I would rather buy a Glock, or a Springfield XD, and know I'll have a gun where quality isn't compromised to the point of possibly sacrificing operational dependability. That won't happen with a $450.00 Glock. It might with a $450.00, 1911. An AK-47 can easily be built in today's market to run dependably for $450.00. A 1911 is simply more of a gamble at that price point.   Bill T.