Mercenaries

[tombogan03884]

A while back FQ, who went through ROTC training, made a comment in a post that he did not approve of mercenaries.
He was refering to "Private contractors" such as Halliburton, and KBR. This inspired a couple of thoughts, but after 2 hours I still have not found his post to answer it, so I will start a new thread.
My first thought was "You may have ROTC, but you don't know squat about fighting a war". This side tracked me because I realized that it is exactly true, and it is the source of the comment about 2nd Lt's and compasses.
I'm sure 2How and the other combat veterans will agree when I say that regardless of what the new butter bar may think, He does not know how to fight a war simply because that is not the focus of his training, he is taught to lead small units as a cog in a larger wheel, if this were not true they would not need a "Staff and Command" school for Lt's Col. and above, That is where they begin learning to run a war, as opposed to an engagement with in a war.

On the subject of Mercenaries I will base my argument on the Battle of the Bulge.
The reason the Nazi Ardennes Offensive was initially successful was because the Allied forces did not have enough warm bodies to be strong every where and that area had been pretty quite. Much has been made of the fact that the majority of the truck drivers in the "Red Ball Express" were Black and in the then segregated Army Blacks were generally not allowed in combat units.
In fact, this is irrelevant, The cargo needed to be handled and trucks driven, it did not matter whether the poeple doing these duties were white, black, or green, If the trucks don't roll the fighters don't get food, ammo, fuel, or the other things needed in modern war.
I remember reading somewhere that during the Vietnam war, out of 100 troops in uniform 90 were performing support missions  of transport, supply, admin etc. so that 10 could fight.
The most effective tactic against an insurgency such as Vietnam or Iraq is intensive patrolling, being out there meeting the people, hampering the enemies move, and interfering with his plans , movements, and schedules, it gives the civilians more faith in your ability to protect them and leads to more and better intelligence, which in turn leads to more effective action against the enemy.
The Airborne have a rule, Everyone jumps, everyone fights.
Put that with the Union rule of "We pay people to do that"
What would have happened if instead of 90 troops supporting 10 shooters, we had hired Halliburton for things like Road security, Mess duty, truck drivers etc. etc. even if we had only reduced the ratio to 50 support for 50 Grunts, it would have lead to a 500% increase in effective man power, and the tactical effectiveness of the force would have been increased immeasurably.
The fact that private companies are now being hired to perform functions such as Convoy and Personnel security, truck drivers, Cooks and so on, and on, and on means that a smaller uniformed military presence can be far more effective in its primary mission which is shooting BG's instead of having it's combat power dissipated in "housekeeping" duties.
You will note that in Iraq things have pretty much settled down as a win for us, despite the Dems previous treasonous comments.
The reason is that we were able to use the available combat power more effectively in support of the civilian population instead of peeling tater's.

[fightingquaker13]

I too want a bit of time to think about the topic.
I would make two points up front though.
My objection to contractors is the question of power and accountability. Basically, if we give people the right to kill in our name, they need to be held accountable to the law. That means civilian law or the UCMJ. Civilian law doesn't fly in the field, so that's out. Most contractors wanted no part of the UCMJ for obvious reasons. That left BlackWater in the odd position of being virtually unaccountable to US, Military, or Iraqi law. A bad idea for obvious reasons.
Second, lets assume we just have them doing service and support. There are two problems. The first is shoddy work. The complaints against KBR for screwing over the military are well known. Hell, military contractors have screwed over the troops since Alexander The Great put in his first order for 5,000 pairs of sandals and "well preserved" beef.
Releated to this is the issue of danger. You can order an army convoy up a dangerous road under threat of court martial. What about contractors who refuse to go? What if they unionize and strike? Sound far fetched? Look at the TSA.

I will concede that stateside logistics and dockside maintainence etc can be safely and probably effeciently contracted out. That would free up folks to be deployed in field. When it comes to a combat zone? I am deeply skeptical.
FQ13

[tombogan03884]

Before I reply I want to note for those who may not realize it. FQ and I occasionally have some very interesting discussions via PM, this is not a flame of him or his idea's, but some thoughts I have had inspired by his comments.

The military has been hiring civilians for decades , My mother retired from being employed by the Air Force as a Quality systems anylist . I'm sure that among previous civilian employees there have been those who violated the law, what regs were they prosecuted under, (Come to think of it, John Walker, and Aldrich Ames were both civilian employee's when they were arrested for spying for the Soviets, and I'm not positive but I think Jonathan Pollard was a civ. when he was busted for spying for Israel )
So on that account your concern has already been looked at and answered.
As for the "quality issue" again, a non issue, you point out yourself that military's have been dealing with it for a few thousand years.
Unions, simple, No work, No pay. again an obsolete issue since Fire and Police forces have been unionized for at least decades and show that your concerns are unfounded.

I'll be waiting to see your "Long thought" post.
One of these days I need to figure a way to gather these into a book form.
"Debates with the Quaker" I'll cut you in on the royalties.

[m25operator]

Maybe I am naive, but I have a friend in Blackwater as a medic, very cool, reliable guy, that I would have in my fox hole anytime, He can haul a 200 lb man 100 yards over his shoulder and not break a sweat, he is at this time 58 to 60 yrs old, but healthy as an ox, ex police, fireman, and landscape contractor, looks like he is 40. As far as I know, he is still there. Now to the matter, mercenaries can be used for many options, supplement the military, one side or the other, protect private interests, in which they are like body guards, personal security, and within that scenario, have carte blanch, within the property they are to protect. They only have to answer to their employers, unless they act outside the law. When I was in my late teens, early 20's, I thought I had the life skills to do that kind of job, and really thought about going to South Africa as a freelancer, glad now I did not, and got married instead. Pay in 1979 was 200 bucks a day. A mercenary is a soldier for hire, for either side or private interests. There are pro's and con's but this what a lot ex soldiers do as long as there is an opportunity.z Get paid 10 times what your combat pay was, for the same work and probably better chow.

[tombogan03884]

Pay was good in Rhodesia too. In the Congo Mike Hoare's Mercenaries were often the only thing between Europeans and death at the hands of UN backed Simba's.

[Sponsor]

[fightingquaker13]

Pay was good in Rhodesia too. In the Congo Mike Hoare's Mercenaries were often the only thing between Europeans and death at the hands of UN backed Simba's.

Yeah, but, I don't care how much they paid those guys, capture? Not an option.
FQ13

[tombogan03884]

Yeah, but, I don't care how much they paid those guys, capture? Not an option.
FQ13

Kipling wrote;
When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains And the women come out to cut up your remains, Roll to your rifle and blow out your brains, and go to your God like a soldier.

The same poem had some other good advice
When half of your shots go wide in the ditch, Don't call your Martini a cross eyed old bitch, She's human as you are and treat as sich, and She'll fight for the young British soldier