Westboro people disgust me.

[Solus]

To use an old example....

Your right to swing  your fist ends where my nose begins....

These folks right to their beliefs (if they are even their beliefs) and to speak those beliefs ends where the privacy and peace required by the grieving families begins.

Let them spout their feelings on the other side of town or in their home town.  Let them wave banners and even signs with the names of the heroes they wish to dishonor all they want...just not where it causes pain to those who have suffered the loss of their loved ones.

I don't like them much for their beliefs, and from what I've  heard, it might not be their beliefs but rather a means to cause a reaction..baiting.

But what I despise them for is where and how and why they choose to express those "beliefs" and that is not under the protection of the Constitution.

[tombogan03884]

I'm NOT speaking for TT but these people scumbags don't have any less or any more rights than the grieving families.
It's a shame and a disgrace, but it is their right.

Would I like them to stop they're stupidity? You bet!
Would I like them to get their asses kicked! I sure would! (I'd buy a ticket and bring popcorn for everyone)
Would you go to jail for assault if you stomped one, or all of them to jello? Yes, you would.

What I would really like to see is 2000 people show up at one of their funerals and mock them...but normal folks just don't do that out of common decency that is all too uncommon.
These dirtbags just aren't normal.

As noted, defending the right to free speech is easy when you agree with the speaker.
Defending nazis, muslims, the KKK, rappers, black panthers and liberals is tougher because they are wrong.  

That is not correct,No more so than the 1st Amendment right to yell "Fire" in a crowded theater.
Had to make it stand out from the posts I'm quoting  

To use an old example....

Your right to swing  your fist ends where my nose begins....

These folks right to their beliefs (if they are even their beliefs) and to speak those beliefs ends where the privacy and peace required by the grieving families begins.

Let them spout their feelings on the other side of town or in their home town.  Let them wave banners and even signs with the names of the heroes they wish to dishonor all they want...just not where it causes pain to those who have suffered the loss of their loved ones.

I don't like them much for their beliefs, and from what I've  heard, it might not be their beliefs but rather a means to cause a reaction..baiting.

But what I despise them for is where and how and why they choose to express those "beliefs" and that is not under the protection of the Constitution.

This also is not exactly correct, many courts recognize the principle of "Fighting words" where a person makes a statement or accusation that is so offensive a "reasonable person" would react with violence.  These "people" seem to be excellant candidates for that.

[tt11758]

I'm NOT speaking for TT but these people scumbags don't have any less or any more rights than the grieving families.
It's a shame and a disgrace, but it is their right.

Would I like them to stop they're stupidity? You bet!
Would I like them to get their asses kicked! I sure would! (I'd buy a ticket and bring popcorn for everyone)
Would you go to jail for assault if you stomped one, or all of them to jello? Yes, you would.

What I would really like to see is 2000 people show up at one of their funerals and mock them...but normal folks just don't do that out of common decency that is all too uncommon.
These dirtbags just aren't normal.

As noted, defending the right to free speech is easy when you agree with the speaker.
Defending nazis, muslims, the KKK, rappers, black panthers and liberals is tougher because they are wrong.  

You said what I was trying to say, but far more eloquently.

[tombogan03884]

While it is true that the Bill of Rights is there to protect the unpopular, because the words, writings, religions etc. that folks agree with do not need protection. That was the point made by the SCOTUS ruling on the Nazi/ KKK march in Skokie Ill.
However, as I tried to express in my last post I think these people are wrong legally, as well as morally.
If not, they are skirting close enough to the edge that an assault charge by them would be judged based on the Judges personal feelings rather than any specific legal or Constitutional precedent.

[Pecos Bill]

Didn't I hear that these "people" do this to stir up trouble then sue when their assaulted and live off the profits? Heard a couple of them are lawyers and they've been doing this exact thing for years. Don't remember the source but if true what needs to be done is ignore them and their schtik will, like the old soldier, will just fade away. Do something to them (no matter how deserved) and they thrive forever.

[Sponsor]

[kmitch200]

That is not correct,No more so than the 1st Amendment right to yell "Fire" in a crowded theater.
Had to make it stand out from the posts I'm quoting  

But you do have a right to yell "fire" in a crowded theater.

You have a moral obligation to your fellow man to yell FIRE!.......if there is one.

To limit freedom of speech because someone may say something offensive or wrong is prior restraint. Not a good idea.
The same argument has been made in the name of 'gun control'.
"You shouldn't own a [insert currently hated gun here] because bad things could happen."  

What I don't understand is why these clowns haven't been charged with disturbing the peace.

[CJS3]

I've said it before, funerals are NOT public events. They are private affairs held out in the open. You do not have freedom of speech at a private affair (Thus protestors are escorted out of political events). State Courts have already acknowledged this, and SCOTUS is now contemplating this question.

Rights don't exist without responcibilities. Act irresponcible and your rights dissappear.

[tombogan03884]

But you do have a right to yell "fire" in a crowded theater.

You have a moral obligation to your fellow man to yell FIRE!.......if there is one.

To limit freedom of speech because someone may say something offensive or wrong is prior restraint. Not a good idea.
The same argument has been made in the name of 'gun control'.
"You shouldn't own a [insert currently hated gun here] because bad things could happen."  

What I don't understand is why these clowns haven't been charged with disturbing the peace.

I should have specified "when there is no fire" but since the example is older than I am I did not think it necessary.
Your comparison to the anti gun movement seems incorrect to me because these jerks are traveling hundreds of miles with the intent to be offensive, while a gun owner is simply following the course of his normal life.
I already thought of things like NRA convention, and SHOT show, but I have never heard of the Phelps family attending a National Convention of assholes, so I would question the comparison.  

To add to your last comment, I wonder also about lying on the application for their protest, generally speaking "peaceful Protest" does not include shouting intentional offensive things. Then there is also the "intent to incite", their whole business is based on inciting otherwise peaceable people to act against them.
Come to think of it, they cross state lines with the intent to piss folks off to the point one of them gets shoved, or punched, That's intent to incite violence, isn't that a federal offense ?

I've said it before, funerals are NOT public events. They are private affairs held out in the open. You do not have freedom of speech at a private affair (Thus protestors are escorted out of political events). State Courts have already acknowledged this, and SCOTUS is now contemplating this question.

Rights don't exist without responcibilities. Act irresponcible and your rights dissappear.

At the individual level, example, no guns, votes, or public office for convicted felons.

To your first paragraph, If you have said it before I must not have been paying attention.
I should have, it's a good point.

[Solus]

Didn't I hear that these "people" do this to stir up trouble then sue when their assaulted and live off the profits? Heard a couple of them are lawyers and they've been doing this exact thing for years. Don't remember the source but if true what needs to be done is ignore them and their schtik will, like the old soldier, will just fade away. Do something to them (no matter how deserved) and they thrive forever.

You are correct, Pecos. 

The problem is that it is sometimes difficult for someone who has just buried a loved one to hear a group of strangers yelling and waving signs that they are glad the loved one died, that he deserved to die and that God hatted the him and was punishing him.

Hard to maintain an unemotional objective and logical frame of mind at times like that...even if it would be the best course

[tombogan03884]

You are correct, Pecos.  

The problem is that it is sometimes difficult for someone who has just buried a loved one to hear a group of strangers yelling and waving signs that they are glad the loved one died, that he deserved to die and that God hatted the him and was punishing him.

Hard to maintain an unemotional objective and logical frame of mind at times like that...even if it would be the best course

That's why I think the "fighting words" principal should be applied.

M'ette posted this a page or 2 back

BY TIM POTTER AND DEB GRUVER
The Wichita Eagle


Prosecutors today charged a decorated, double-amputee veteran with stalking and three counts of criminal use of a firearm in an incident involving members of a controversial Topeka church. Ryan J. Newell, 26, an Army veteran living in Marion, made his first appearance in Sedgwick County District Court through a video connection with the Sedgwick County Jail. He also was charged with false impersonation. His bond remains at $500,000.


VETERAN CHARGED WITH STALKING PHELPS FAMILY


WICHITA — Prosecutors today charged a decorated, double-amputee veteran with stalking and three counts of criminal use of weapons in an incident involving members of a controversial Topeka church.
Ryan J. Newell, 26, an Army veteran living in Marion, made his first appearance in Sedgwick County District Court through a video connection with the Sedgwick County Jail.
He also was charged with false impersonation of a law enforcement officer.
All the charges are misdemeanors.
His bond remains at $500,000.
The stalking charge accuses Newell of actions targeted at Westboro Baptist Church members and putting them in fear for their safety.
The weapons charges accuse him of unlawfully carrying and concealing or possessing with "intent to use" an M4 rifle, .45-caliber Glock handgun and .38-caliber Smith and Wesson handgun.
Two lawyers appeared in court at today's first appearance offering to represent Newell. He told Judge Ben Burgess that he had received offers from a number of attorneys wanting to represent him.
Burgess quipped, "The more the merrier, I suppose."
Newell, who appeared in a wheelchair and was wearing an orange jail jumpsuit, was ordered to have no contact with members of the church.
Newell's maternal grandmother saw him on Thanksgiving and said, "I think he looked better that day than I'd seen him in a long time."
She said he had never talked to her about the Phelps family but she knew he didn't like their protests at military funerals.
"He was for the United States, and he would give his life for it," she said.
The grandmother said she and her husband talked to Newell once or twice a month in recent months and wrote to him while he was serving abroad. They visited him in the hospital after he was injured in Afghanistan.
Newell had been having some health problems, she said, but his spirits were good at times.
"I just can't imagine him wanting to hurt anybody," she said, adding she learned about her grandson's arrest from his brother.
Many residents in Marion had not heard about Newell's arrest Wednesday. Neither had the local newspaper.
Newell's wife, Carrie, appeared tired and worn when she answered the door at their home Wednesday. She declined to talk to a reporter, as did her father.
Marion residents put on a parade for Newell when he returned home from Afghanistan and pitched in to help build his family a new home through the nonprofit group Homes for Our Troops.
A big sign in the Newells' yard designates his home as one built through the organization. The home was designed to accommodate his injuries.
Sedgwick County sheriff's detectives arrested Newell mid-morning Tuesday in the Wichita City Hall parking lot after a detective saw him following a van with members of Westboro Baptist Church, Sheriff Robert Hinshaw has said.
The church members were meeting in City Hall with police officials. Detectives found Newell in a vehicle backed into a parking space. In the vehicle, investigators found two handguns, a rifle and more than 90 rounds of ammunition, sources have said.
Agents with the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives went to Newell's home, and his wife turned over items including firearms to law enforcement, said a source close to the investigation.
The Topeka church has drawn wide condemnation because its members protest at soldiers' funerals nationwide. The members claim that war deaths are God's punishment for immorality.
Newell lost his legs after an improvised bomb exploded while he was serving in Afghanistan in 2008. Some of his fellow soldiers died in the attack.
The church did not protest at funerals of the soldiers who were killed in the bombing that wounded Newell, said Westboro spokeswoman Shirley Phelps-Roper.
Newell has received the Bronze Star and Purple Heart, a relative said.
Marsha Hephner, 69, of Arkansas City, said she thinks Newell will receive widespread sympathy.
"I think it doesn't even matter what side of the political spectrum you are on," Hephner said. "What these (Westboro) people are doing is wrong. I'm a liberal liberal, and I do believe in freedom of speech, but what these people are doing, they offend the words 'freedom of speech.' "


Read more: http://www.kansas.com/2010/12/02/1615474/wounded-vet-charged-in-westboro.html#ixzz174bpULIX
   
I may be missing something here but I do not see any reference to threats he made, or any other acts that would warrant his arrest.
On the other hand, it reminds the Phelps family that a scumbag lawyer is only partial protection.
You have to admire this guy if he is  guilty, lost both legs and is still fighting for the Republic.
He belongs in the "Unstoppable hero's" thread.