From the Wall Street Journal-OpEd

[tombogan03884]

JNevis is right about England, Most of the amphibious warfare assets they managed to scrape together for the Falklands campaign (Carriers) which did not supply enough air lift capacity as it was , have since been scrapped . In fact, Hermes was on it's way to decommissioning at the time of the Argie invasion and had to be pulled back into service.

[jnevis]

I briefly saw HMS Illustrious on a auction site similar to our Defense Reutilization Management Office/Service, now Defense Logistics Agency-Disposition Services.  It was from a link on WOOT! but went to a UK gov't site.

[ratcatcher55]

"A smaller force will not shorten deployment time, only worsen the problem.'

That is the issue. If you don't have the forces and it is not in the best interest of the US,  don't send troops. Yes I agree that most elected officials don't want to make that call because some talking head will wail about the poor folks in Kosovo, Liberia, Darfur, Rowanda or East Timor.  I don't think they are worth one American life.

Procurement and development issues are a very big problem to the budget because you get nothing for the billions you pay out.
Big waste of time and assets. Yes feature creep and unrealalistic parameters are rampant. The last time program we were asked to comment on would need the capture of alien technology and a change in the laws of physics before it could get started.

I just don't see the ecconomy being able to support any government at the current funding much less at growth.  I do agree that DOD is the one that need the funding the most for the protection of the country.

[tombogan03884]

One aspect that is being overlooked is employment.
The Government currently admits that at least 9.6 % of the country is out of work, we know that number is low (one week they wail that unemployment has climbed to 9.6 % then a few weeks later they brag that new hiring has brought the number down to 9.6% )
Cutting the number of uniformed troops on active duty would increase that number significantly, this is part of the reason we keep so many troops in Iraq, and why congress will not pull out of that hopeless shithole Afghanistan.

[fightingquaker13]

One aspect that is being overlooked is employment.
The Government currently admits that at least 9.6 % of the country is out of work, we know that number is low (one week they wail that unemployment has climbed to 9.6 % then a few weeks later they brag that new hiring has brought the number down to 9.6% )
Cutting the number of uniformed troops on active duty would increase that number significantly, this is part of the reason we keep so many troops in Iraq, and why congress will not pull out of that hopeless shithole Afghanistan.

Unemployment is the greatest recruiting tool the military has ever had. Always has been, always will be. The Roman Dictator (used as a title, not a slur) Marius realized this in 107 BC when he allowed the poor to join the legions. Its been that way ever since. Hell, Jessica Lynch said she signed up when the local Wal-mart wasn't hiring. Frankly, I think this is a good thing. It beats the hell out of paying welfare, and there is plenty of work to be done (the border anyone?). It also gives folks skills, discipline and a chance to go to college. It ain't cheap, but it seemds like we get more than our money's worth.
FQ13

[Sponsor]

[ratcatcher55]

There are 700,000+ civilian employees of the Department of Defense for 1,400,000 active duty personnel.
That does not include contractors working full time on military bases and depots.

I think that ratio could be improved.

[tombogan03884]

Not being a smart ass here RC.
Would that allow for continuity when units deploy ? For an example in Maintenance units, wouldn't the remaining civilian employees be needed to keep up standards and skill levels ? Serving as training Cadre for incoming replacements ?
2 to 1 does seem like a ridiculously high ratio though.

[jnevis]

other strictly I'll take a stab at it for you Tom. It boils down to the same principal as the farm workers. Military leadership want globally deployable members so if they can give logistics and other strictly stateside jobs to a guvvy or contractor they wil. Most of the equipment testing and such is done by contractors and|or gov't civilians with some military oversight. There ate almost no military maintenance here, almost all contract. The upside is it costs slightly less and there are less downtime requirements (watches,training ect). Unfotunately it also limits the billets for people to take to "get a break" from deploying. All the Navy's shore billets are starting to disappear. As they do more Sailors get burned out and leave because they want a break from deployment since the manning levels are so low. Plus the budget weenies see the savings of passing it off on corprate since now they don't jave to cover health care or retirement. So the justify the savings by cutting billets then wonder why retention sucks. The Congress sees we don t need a big military and cuts force structure even further, only worsening the problem.

Trying to do this on the phone so I apologize for any errors

[tombogan03884]

Thanks for the explanation J. When I was in the Marines  Motor Transport Maintenance Co. (3rd Echelon ) had 2 civilians who were cracker jack mechanics, they served as advisers to the guys doing the work. (almost 200) it seems that a lot can change in 30 years.

[ratcatcher55]

Tom,

I don't think I made my point clear. Cut the civilian side of the equation.  They cost more and IMHO get less done on a day by day basis.

As jnevis said moving to contractors ends up draining E-5 and up technical support troops from the force.  There is always some friction when the contractor doing the same job in East Jibib is making 2 to 3 times the amount of money of the troop working next to him.  I have worked with some pretty good contractors overseas but they were all in the military before making the jump. Many had 20 and out, but more than a few had bailed at 10-14 years.

If you go to the states it is very different.  I have had to deal with some real brain donors in DC, Crystal City, Richmond, Mechanicsburg, Dugway, APG and San Diego.  These folks did not know their job, your job or what was clear required under a contract or procurement. Not one of these idiots was in uniform.