Author Topic: Debate/Arguement - I'm in one  (Read 3134 times)

MikeBjerum

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Debate/Arguement - I'm in one
« on: December 31, 2010, 07:26:37 PM »
I have been debating several issues with family members, and it gets more than a little heated from time to time.  I often get labeled as being from a certain party or getting all my information from a certain news source, which I don't.  Even though I am not all over the wall, I do pride myself as being able to look at all sides of an issue and decide for myself.

The following is a statement that I am basing much of my point on at this time.  What do you think?

Quote
Some where back in our history a societal group determined that politics could replace governing and that it could be a career. At another point another group decided that self reliance was no longer a desirable trait. The combination of these two changes in our American culture was the point in history when this pot of cold water full of frogs that we call the United States of America was put over a flame. The temperature has been slowly rising for decades, and most of us have no idea the situation we are in. As long as the government keeps us well fed and gives us some sense of security we will just lean back and praise them for the great hot tub we are relaxing in.
If I appear taller than other men it is because I am standing on the shoulders of others.

tombogan03884

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Re: Debate/Arguement - I'm in one
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2010, 07:33:44 PM »
Here's some background for you from Bill Whittle, There is more at the link but I'm posting the most pertinent part

http://pajamasmedia.com/ejectejecteject/

the rot began to take hold in America due primary to a group called The Frankfurt School. Keep in mind that the Frankfurt school is merely a product of where they appear on this great wheel of history – there have been dozens of civilizations that had their own “Frankfurt schools” in languages now lost to history.

But right after World War One, in Frankfurt, Germany the Institute for Social Research – they wanted to call themselves the “Institute for Marxism” but that was too on the nose – was left wondering why the world communist revolution — predicted as a certainty by Marxist social science – was not leading to the international revolution of the proletariat, the actual common working man.

And they figured out that capitalism – damn it! – was providing enough comfort and material gain, enough of an increase in the working man’s standard of living – that it just simply wasn’t going to happen. Ever.

Now, one kind of person might look at this and say, hooray! People’s lives are getting better – guess we weren’t needed after all.

But not these guys. These guys felt they had to bring heaven to earth.

And so they asked themselves: if the vanguard of the revolution wasn’t going to be the worker, then who would it be? And the answer they came up with was: the dispossessed.

The Neo-Marxist revolution would not attack the capitalist economy – that was too successful. The target of the new Marxist revolution would be the Culture.

Marxist philosophers like Antonia Gramsci, and later, Saul Alinski – personal hero to such present-day fellow travelers as Chris Matthews, Hillary Clinton and, of course, The President of the United States – started to create narratives – stories – about America. This rapidly evolved into a philosophy called “Critical Theory” and the idea of Critical Theory was to attack the dominant culture – that would be us – from all sides, simultaneously.

For instance, Black Americans would be told that their labor built the entire country, while White Americans merely sat back and essentially stole everything. Black slave labor did build the cotton economies of the Southern Confederacy, but the entire Confederacy had less factory capacity than New York City alone.

Nonetheless, many black Americans today have been taught that all of this belongs to them and not the truth, which is that that they were, and are, an integral and essential part of the group effort that built this country together.

Likewise, women are told that we live in an evil patriarchy, where all men are tyrants and potential rapists, determined to keep them in a form of domestic slavery, instead of being their partners and helpmates and husbands and protectors.

Gays are told not that this is one of the most inclusive and forgiving societies in the history of the world, but rather home to knuckle-dragging, murdering Neanderthals – when in plain sight, across the seas, one and a half billion Muslims routinely hang or stone or crush to death innocent people merely because of their sexual practices.

And on and on.

And when you try to argue against this social weapon of theirs, this Narrative, this lie that they tell again and again, well then, prepare for their counter-attack, which is called Political Correctness – the attempt to put the argument out of bounds before it can be had.

They use terms like Hate Speech and Racism. They want to put our arguments and rebuttals out of bounds so that they don’t have to hear them or deal with them. They have to exclude those arguments because if they don’t, those arguments are going to kick their asses and they know it.

And by the way: charges of Racism only work on decent people. You go up to a Klansman or a Nazi and call them a racist, and they say “duh!” Of course they’re racists. They’re proud of being racists. But you go up to someone who is not a racist, a person who finds racism appalling and disgusting, and tell them what they are saying is racism – even when it not only isn’t racism, but is in fact the opposite of racism– well, they’ll shut up. Mission Accomplished.

The objectives of the Frankfurt School, of Gramsci and Alinski in their assault on the culture, were laid out in detail and were very clear: Eliminate not only the voice, but the very idea of reason. Destroy history. Delegitimize shared morality. Medicate instead of discipline children. Promote the idea that problems are so complex that only elitists, experts and academics can discuss, let alone solve them. A later pair of American Marxist philosophers developed what became known as the Cloward-Piven strategy: overwhelm America’s social systems – welfare, health care, immigration, etc. by telling people they were owed things, and by intentionally overwhelming them, cause them to collapse – leaving nothing but smoking wreckage, and no where to turn but to the government.

But above all, for this Frankfurt school strategy to work, it needed to foster resentment, envy, hopelessness and despair.

And it’s been spectacularly successful.

GASPASSERDELUXE

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Re: Debate/Arguement - I'm in one
« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2010, 07:35:33 PM »
I have been debating several issues with family members, and it gets more than a little heated from time to time.  I often get labeled as being from a certain party or getting all my information from a certain news source, which I don't.  Even though I am not all over the wall, I do pride myself as being able to look at all sides of an issue and decide for myself.

The following is a statement that I am basing much of my point on at this time.  What do you think?

You have my vote in that argument.

cookie62

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Re: Debate/Arguement - I'm in one
« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2010, 08:35:03 PM »

Some where back in our history a societal group determined that politics could replace governing and that it could be a career. At another point another group decided that self reliance was no longer a desirable trait. The combination of these two changes in our American culture was the point in history when this pot of cold water full of frogs that we call the United States of America was put over a flame. The temperature has been slowly rising for decades, and most of us have no idea the situation we are in. As long as the government keeps us well fed and gives us some sense of security we will just lean back and praise them for the great hot tub we are relaxing in.


I agree with that statement
A bird in the hand is worth..Well, about a box of shells!
Yes, I'm bitter and cling to guns and religion..

alfsauve

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Re: Debate/Arguement - I'm in one
« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2010, 08:54:11 PM »

But not these guys. These guys felt they had to bring heaven to earth.


There is a book called Heaven on Earth - The Rise and Fall of Socialism by Joshua Muravchik.   It's a very in-depth look at the people who created socialism and at the various failed experiments, including the Kibbutzim.    It covers Babeuf, Owen's failed US experiment, Engles, Bernstein, Marx, Lenin and Tony Blair, among other notable socialist.  A slow read, but very revealing.

The term "heaven on earth" comes from the Communist Confession of Faith, by Moses Hess, 1846:
Quote
"The Christian....imagines the better future of the human species...in the image of heavenly joy....We, on the other hand, will have this heaven on earth."

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Re: Debate/Arguement - I'm in one
« Reply #5 on: Today at 04:39:50 PM »

tombogan03884

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Re: Debate/Arguement - I'm in one
« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2010, 09:16:07 PM »
I never really thought of the Kibbutzim as being socialist. I had always thought they were more akin to the tribal society structure similar to that practiced by the American Indians where every one just took care of the community rather than person ambition.
What are every bodies thoughts on such a  "Tribal" mentality  , where the good of the community takes precedence over personal ambition ? In many tribes a "Chief" gave away his belongings upon his elevation, and if he gained possesions due to his position he was cast out as unworthy. Would this be considered "socialist" ? Could it work in a larger community ?
It seems to me that such a concept is, in some degree a motivating factor in the "Volunteer" military we have today.

twyacht

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Re: Debate/Arguement - I'm in one
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2010, 10:08:58 PM »
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Slavery has so frightful an aspect to men accustomed to freedom, that it must steal in upon them by degrees and must disguise itself in a thousand shapes in order to be received."
David Hume,1742

Frogs in a kettle....

IMHO, the gov't has given me NOTHING. It stole my Mother's Social Security, because my sister and I were "too old", it has taken and burdened me with taxation WITHOUT representation, and to its merit, made me more resourceful to work under the table when possible.

The gov't no longer keeps anyone well fed, and cannot protect us, the citizenry, from an encroachment of our borders.

Sadly...

"A society of sheep must in time beget a government of wolves."
Bertrand de Jouvenel

Not for the card carrying members of the 3%,....

Thomas Jefferson: The strongest reason for the people to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against the tyranny of government. That is why our masters in Washington are so anxious to disarm us. They are not afraid of criminals. They are afraid of a populace which cannot be subdued by tyrants."
Col. Jeff Cooper.

Teresa Heilevang

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Re: Debate/Arguement - I'm in one
« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2011, 02:05:03 PM »
Some where back in our history a societal group determined that politics could replace governing and that it could be a career. At another point another group decided that self reliance was no longer a desirable trait. The combination of these two changes in our American culture was the point in history when this pot of cold water full of frogs that we call the United States of America was put over a flame.


Lets look back....the big transitions are not hard to see... IF we dispose of revisionist history.  The Progressive Era, 1890s -1920s.. began the social activism that allowed Progressive 'heroes' like Teddy Roosevelt, RINOs like Herbert Hoover & maniacal socialists like Woodrow Wilson to lay the social/legal groundwork for FDRs New (Raw) Deal.
 The forggies were all warm from the 20s and the Depression (made worse in America by government tinkering) society was all to ready to let government 'make it all better.' ...Yeahhhhh, right!



The temperature has been slowly rising for decades... and most of the people have no idea the situation we are in. As long as the government keeps us well fed and gives us some sense of security we will all just lean back and praise them for the great hot tub we are relaxing in.



Rising temps with the help of LBJ's New Deal... Bush's No Child Left Behind & PharmaFix, and now stupid Obummer's open agenda that appeals to class/race warfare designed to drive the moocher class into final... almost total dependence (submission) to government... is keeping it right up there at the top..

The hot tub ain't a hot tub, it's a boiling kettle.  Those in it by choice, complacence or force are all subject to being boiled alive.  The cooking process has first boiled off our liberty, limited our pursuit of happiness & will ultimately place our lives under the hard tyranny of those who would replace the wisdom of nature's God with the folly of man.

There are surely many who can not see... But, I suspect.. just as many who will not see... and those who see and are willing participants in their own demise. 
Sad.... really really sad.
"Well Behaved Women Rarely Make History ! "
 

tombogan03884

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Re: Debate/Arguement - I'm in one
« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2011, 04:56:48 PM »
Jefferson's comment on the Whiskey rebellion in Virginia and Shay's rebellion in Mass was
"God forbid we should ever be 20 years without such a rebellion"

But don't get your hopes up. The average American will bitch and complain about high taxes, and rising prices, and then he will...
Sit back in his recliner and change the channel to American Idol, Dancing with the Stars, or some other brain numbing shit and continue to chew his cud.

Because the Race that bred Adam's, Hancock, Madison and the others who "Pledges their Lives, Liberty, and sacred Honor" have been replaced by a bunch of moral cowards who place a higher value on personal comfort, and security than on their duty as Citizens.
They no longer possess Honor, it has been replaced by the Mortgage. Not 1 in 100 has courage to stand up and say, "Not just NO, but F*CK NO!"

They buy guns and Gadsden Flags and talk about "Oath Keepers and 3%ers, but the fact is that that is ALL they will do.
And the Obama's, Pelosi's and Reids have them pegged as just the sheep they are.

twyacht

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Re: Debate/Arguement - I'm in one
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2011, 05:53:12 PM »
At some point, along this current path, the rubber will hit the road, the SWHTF, the line in the sand will be cast, and "allowing" the usurping bastards in Congress to continue, will be confronted.

Nov. 2010, was a wake up call, a decent portion of the sheeple, have stopped watching American Idol. They are paying attention to the screwing were getting.

Remember, BHO and his admin, would love a rebellion, Alinsky, is hoping for it, Van Jones "bottom up" revolution is counting on it.

No crises should go to waste. Out of chaos, would be order....None that any of us, would tolerate, endure or support.

If the dollar collapses, the EU dissolves, inflation gets a loaf of bread to $10, gallon of gas to $5.00, bonds worthless, you'll see what you did in Greece, France, England, Ukraine. Soros has planned for it.

Pray it doesn't come to that, but a pitiful "little band" taking a stand will be crushed. It must involve a large portion of this country.

We're talking millions marching on DC, and State Capitols, and County Commissioners.

The Tea Party "woke" a few up,......and it's not over yet.





Thomas Jefferson: The strongest reason for the people to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against the tyranny of government. That is why our masters in Washington are so anxious to disarm us. They are not afraid of criminals. They are afraid of a populace which cannot be subdued by tyrants."
Col. Jeff Cooper.

 

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