Please Vote How small is too small? .380ACP .32ACP 25 ACP 22LR 22 Short

[hodman]

I will begin this by first saying that I am not a 380 ACP hater.  I have owned all three of Colt’s (government model, Mustang, Pony) 380’s in addition to several Walther’s and a few other ones that don't even need mentioning here.  However, what is brought me to bring this question to the board is all the renewed interest in the 380 caliber as a carry gun.  First Ruger, then Karr and I even hear rumblings of Glock are now on the 380 bandwagon (I've actually shot both of the Glock’s in 380 and liked them).
 My good friend, Mas Ayoob said to me when I showed him my Colt 380.  “That's cute, and it's better than a sharp stick” followed by” friends don't let friends carry mouse guns” this hurt my feelings.  So I said, what is it you have against 380?  He explained to me that the 380 was a killer, but not a stopper at least not consistently.  He said there are many incidences were people shot with 380s will continue to fight and harm you and then bleed out and die 15 to 20 minutes after being shot.  His philosophy is that you shoot to stop the threat not kill.  After I had this discussion with Mas I ask a friend of mine who was a paramedic on an ambulance in a high crime city, his experiences with the 380 were similar about the effectiveness of 380.
I have since adjusted my carry gun to be a Karr PM9 in a pocket holster.  This gives me seven rounds of 9mm +P I supplement that with a Karr P45 carried on the belt or a wilderness packer.
I am very pragmatic and would obviously say that the gun in your pocket beats the gun in the car the gun in the car beats the gun at home and the gun at home beats the gun in the gun safe.  So the argument is a 380 or no gun.  I guess now I side with 380.
 
Now, I know that there's going to be the crowd that says either it's all about ammunition.  Or it's all about shot placement.  I can tell you that I have watched a large animal dropped to the ground with one shot from a Sea Camp 32 firing Silver tips.  This was quite impressive, but I wonder how many people have the ability to consistently have the right shot placement in a stress fire environment?  I am a confessed shooting school junkie and I shoot most of the handgun disciplines weekly (ICORE, IDPA IPSC, ECT) and I can tell you that the vast majority of shooters don't practice enough to produce cold on demand hits in the vital areas.

So, with all this said, I asked the question, what is the minimum caliber for self defense.  And what does that criteria add up to in quantifiable data.  I mean do we have a minimum energy coefficient.  Or perhaps a sustainable wound cavity in ballistic gelatin or is it penetration in gelatin.

[2HOW]

I firmly believe that anything smaller than .38 or 9mm should not be a primary carry gun. But, I have no problem with a .380 as a bug, the right round and shot placement are important. What you can hit and how many times you can hit it in a high stress situation are key factors. Big heavy slow moving expanding bullets are your friend. Fast small bullets that penetrate are what I would carry in a bug.

[ismram]

Hodman, I Ithink that you answered your own question (And I aggree!) 9mm +p. I shoot IDPA and I think that I am a pretty fair shot. That being said, I have never been in a gun fight. I don't know if I could make perfect shots in a stressfull situation. I would hope that I could, but I just don't know. That's why I carry a 40 s&w. The answer to  the question of small gun or no gun is, I would carry a 22 short if that's all I had.

[Hazcat]

My (short) answer?

The minimum caliber is one that you can shoot effectively AND will carry with you ALL OF THE TIME.


My (long) answer?

I carry the P3AT in my pocket always.  Would I like maybe a larger caliber, saya 'micro' .45 that is controllable, holds 8 rounds and weighs 15 oz or less?  Sure!  Tell me where to get it for poor mans money.

Do I feel 'under gunned' with my .380?  Nope, cause my shots will be (most likely) from 10 feet and shorter range.

Is shot placement important?  Yep, ALWAYS.  For as many 'too small a gun' to stop the guy stories you can find, I can find one where a .45 didn't stop a guy either.

I respect Ayoob, Raush, Bane, et al but they are not the be all and end all.  I also follow common sense, personal experience, self testing of guns/ammo etc, when forming my opinions

[DDMac]

P3AT4ME2!  Always there.

Mac.

[Sponsor]

[unique]

I think everyone pretty much answered the question, carry the largest caliber that you will actually carry.
For me, that's a question I've never been able to adequately answer for myself.  I've tried more guns than I like to think about.
In the winter, when I have a heavy coat, I carry a .38 snubbie with +P's.  In the summer the best I can do is a Davis derringer in .32ACP.  I'd really like to carry my 4" barrel Dan Wesson .357, but that's not going to happen.
What you can carry depends a lot on how you carry, which depends on how you dress, and where you're going.  I can carry a good size gun in my coat pocket, but what if I go somewhere where I have to check my coat?
I went to a magic show one time, wore my .45 Colt Officer's in a shoulder holster, under a sport coat.  We were sitting in the second row and the magician wanted to take my coat to perform a trick.  PANIC  I got out of it, but it was embarrassing.
I've bought too many guns because I really wanted that gun, only to find out I really couldn't carry it.

[Michael Bane]

So Hodman;

You do know this is the single most contentious issue in the entire history of shooting, right?

I have occasionally taken issue with my old friend Mas on this whole mouse gun thingie. I believe that there is no such thing as "stopping power" in the Real World when we talk about handguns. Several factors play into this belief, but the biggest is the collision of bullet and body is the very definition of a chaos event, that is, an event in which there are so many factors acting on the system that it defies both prediction and repeatability.

We ideally rate a bullet's stopping power based on observed incapacitation of subjects hit by said bullet in said Real World. It certainly makes sense to choose caliber and ammo that has worked on the street...the problem is that we start thinking that the caliber/ammo were the decisive factor in the shootout, as opposed to SHOT PLACEMENT. When we say something like "Whammo-Zammo Ammo stopped the subject like he/she was hit by a nuclear cluster bomb in 87.67% of the observed cases," how do we factor in shot placement? The short answer is that we don't. Different law enforcement agencies have different standards of training...I would suppose that LAPD SWAT skews the effectiveness standards for their issue ammo because they know how to shoot real well. It might also be fair to note that people who agonize over their ammo choice probably do a bit more training than the average bear, so you get another set of skewed numbers.

So, shoot the ammo you're the most comfortable with and concentrate on getting the hits. I carry 9mm Hornady TAPS in my two primary carry guns. I am confident that I can deliver 3 very, very quick center mass shots with that gun/ammo combination, as well as a fast follow-up "failure drill."

I tend to think in terms of "personal threat levels." I have organized my life so that my general threat level is pretty low — I live in a small town in a rural area; I work out of the house; I don't drink to excess or frequent bars; I don't frequent prostitutes or purchase illegal drugs; I try to practice what I preach in terms of training and preparedness...ie, if I am out of my house, I am armed. In summertimes shorts and t-shirts around home turf, I tend to carry mouse guns, which I would define as any firearms .38 caliber — including the sainted J-frame revolvers — and less, including .380, 9 X 18 Mak, ,32 H&R Magnum, .32 ACP, .25 and the various flavors of .22 rimfire. It can be the J-frame by the door or one of my .380s in a pocket holster.

When I carry a subcaliber gun, I accept that my TACTICS need to change:

1) My targeting focus moves from center mass to head/neck.
2) Fire until the subject stops
3) Either beat feet and/or continue the fight when your gun is empty and subject has not stopped

We did a fascinating scenario in Portland for SG a few seasons back...the 45-Second Drill, based on the fact that it takes a shot person an average of 45 seconds to "shut down." In the drill, you had to continue fighting for 45 seconds after you'd fired what should have been a good "stopper" — in my case, 3 center mass followed by head shots. The drill taught you not to stand around waiting for a bad guy to fall down like a severed tree limb but to constantly keep either fighting or escaping (or both).

When my personal risk factors increase, my carry strategy changes. For example, when I go into Boulder or Denver — even in shorts — it's time for the gun belt, the regular carry gun in a holster and a spare magazine. If there is anything in the environment that worries me in advance — say I'm going into a notoriously bad section of Denver or driving to a city I've never been to before, I up my personal threat level, which means at the very least a second gun in the pocket and possibly a different carry gun (for instance, I have exchanged my usual Sig Sauer P225 single stack for a P226 9mm with higher capacity magazines. In the worst cases, when I've been forced to travel during times of what I think of as social upheaval, I have added a rifle, either a folding stock Mini 14 or my yellow collapsable-stock AR, to the mix.

On driving trips, I generally use my ridiculous Bond Arms .410/.45 Colt derringer in a radical cross-draw driving holster and my regular carry 9mm and extra ammo in a SafePacker between the seats. That way, I always have a gun on my person, even at a quickie gasoline/burrito stop, which can get me back to the 9mm in the car.

I assume that whatever gun/ammo I am using, it is not going to "stop dead" a determined adversary and I have planned accordingly.

I believe the absolute worst thing you can do is trust your magic bullet, magic caliber, magic whatever. I base this on my understanding of decision-making processes under potentially lethal stress, a field in which I am, perversely, recognized nationally as an expert. If I work from the position that there's no such thing as stopping power, I am not going to be surprised when it turns out I'm right. If the bad person stops like he/she ran into a Terminator on a bad day, all the better for me...it's a bluebird...

Here's the disclaimer — these techniques work for me; they might not work for you (or Mas, who has his own set of proven techniques); objects in the rearview mirror may be closer than they appear...

Michael B

 

[CybScryb]

Hmmm...I'm one of those who believes that rarely will a gunfight arise where you have the luxury of arming yourself for the task at hand.  So therefore you go into the fight with the gun that's at hand.  That said, my preferred guns in the home are a Mossberg 500 in 12 gauge, a Stag Arms lefty AR, the Glock model 30, Ruger P90, Dan Wesson model 14-2 and my Colt King Cobra loaded with either .357 or .38 +P.  Carrying outside the home means I'm packing either the G30 or the King Cobra.  I was more than bit disturbed by the FBI report on gun shot stopping power when I read that the .45 ACP (why, all you have to do is hit 'em in the shoulder) brings the same amount of kinetic energy to the human body as a thrown baseball.  If I'm not mistaken, I picked the link to the report up here on the Down Range forums. (http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm)

Once I read that report, I realized that if you have to fight, you need two things.  First and foremost is the warrior attitude that you will not fail; and second is a firearm that will fire every time you pull the trigger and will shoot where you point it without a lot of compensation.  I'm revising my practice drills based on what I learn from Clint Smith each week and am concentrating on being able to stay in the fight until the other guy is no longer a threat.  I've also brought my practice distances in to a maximum of 15 yards with a lot more concentration on ten yards to belt-buckle range.  The wife and I now practice evasive maneuvers in the parking lot at Sam's Club or the grocery store.

I've been bidding on Browning BDA's on GunBroker and AuctionArms for a while but think I'll go ahead and pick up a pair of LCP's and an ACOG with my stimulus check.  There are so many variables to consider that I'd say a choice for carry weapons is a very, very regional decision.  Here in Vegas, it's not unusual to see nothing more than a tank top or no top in the summer and nothing more than a light-weight shirt nine months out of the year.  I'm sure that's very different from Wisconsin, Minnesota or North Dakota so a year-round heavier power cartridge would make more sense.  But with less clothing out here comes less concealment.

So, as always the best advice is old advice.  Better to have a gun and not need it, then to need it and not have it.

[wisconsin]

All the stopping power in the world won't help if you don't back it up with practice. Thats sound advice. The subjects that are brought up for discussion on DRTV just keep getting better. Keep it coming.

[justbill]

IMO the gun itself is at least as important as its chambering. For me, most really small guns are out of the question. My hands are just too big for anything much smaller than a J-frame. As a couple of examples, Walther's PPK draws blood in the web of my hand after one or two magazines and I once actually jammed a Beretta mini auto with the meat between thumb and forefinger after just two shots. OUCH! This is one of the reasons why I personally prefer a .38 snubbie to all the smallish self-loaders.

I won't compromise functional reliability. It easily trumps all "stopping power" power concerns. So if I had my choice between a 100% reliable .32 or a 9mm that jams on occasion, the mousegun wins hands-down.

As far as ammunition goes, I'm not convinced we get consistent expansion with most loads under 1000 fps. I've tested lots of pistol rounds in wetpack and water jugs over the years and feel confident in this opinion. A lot of the real world shooting reports appear to back me up in this. To that end I think penetration is key for slower loads. If I were limited to a .32 or .380, I'd very seriously think about using the hottest Ball load I could find. In the .38 snubbie I often carry, it was the 158-grain LSWCHP +P for many years. To my way of thinking if the bullet didn't open up, I'd at least have a good amount of penetration. I've since switched to the 135-grain Speer Gold Dot. It still has more mass than anything available in cartridges smaller than 9x19 while giving good expansion in my backyard test media. From the little I've read on this round, NYPD is pleased with the cartridge's performance since adopting it for BUG use a couple of years ago. That's good enough for me.