Author Topic: Yellowstone is Dead...  (Read 4421 times)

shooter32

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Yellowstone is Dead...
« on: April 05, 2011, 02:44:17 PM »
Interesting.

A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have. ~ Gerald Ford - August 12, 1974

Ichiban

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Re: Yellowstone is Dead...
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2011, 03:04:39 PM »
It's Bush's fault!   ::)

Hazcat

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Re: Yellowstone is Dead...
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2011, 06:00:06 PM »
From what I get from this the wolf (beautiful animal) is running wild and growing well past their sustainability.  My thoughts....RESPONSIBLE hunters are the greatest conservationists the world has ever known!

Where ever HUNTERS are LIGHTLY managed the wild life has increased and thrived!
All tipoes and misspelings are copi-righted.  Pleeze do not reuse without ritten persimmons  :D

mkm

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Re: Yellowstone is Dead...
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2011, 11:54:36 PM »
If I understand the video correctly, they are mad because there are less elk for hunting now that wolves have been reintroduced.  (I admittedly was a bit distracted during the video as it was not exactly riveting and I got off an airplane a couple hours ago.)

From what I get from this the wolf (beautiful animal) is running wild and growing well past their sustainability.  My thoughts....RESPONSIBLE hunters are the greatest conservationists the world has ever known!

Where ever HUNTERS are LIGHTLY managed the wild life has increased and thrived!

Haz, I get what you're saying and generally agree with it, but I see this with a different perspective than most of you likely will.

I am from the scientific side of things.  

The following is not a shot at anyone on here, but simply my opinion.

First, I am 100% for hunting (responsibly).  I hunt, my career depends on hunting, and I wish everybody would give it a try and take their kids.  I really don't care what you're hunting, but get out there and do it.  If you choose not to hunt, get your butt outside to enjoy wildlife anyway and, at least, be open to the benefits of hunting.

Some animals do not need to be hunted because of reduced numbers from over hunting in the past/habitat loss.  Some animals need to be eradicated (pigs, feral cats, etc).

Added after original post:   A downside to hunting vs natural predation is that hunters tend to remove the best, most fit individuals; whereas, predators tend to remove the weakest, oldest, less fit individuals. end of edit

Second, when it comes to wildlife management/biology, everybody is an expert in their opinion.  Guess what?  They're not.

Third, as with most things, people really need to look at historical data before getting overly worked up about what's happening today.  Just because something is changing from how you know it and think should be doesn't mean it's going in the wrong direction.  "White man" started screwing stuff up as soon as he set foot on this continent and industrialization took it into overdrive.  The way things were in the 20th century isn't likely to be the same as they were historically.  These guys are used to the large elk herds that developed in the absence of a primary predator, the wolf.  They need to realize that wolves have been eating elk for thousands of years and keeping their numbers in check.  I cannot speak to the historical number of elk in the Yellowstone as I have not researched it, but I will give an example with white tailed deer in the East.  They were severely over hunted and extirpated from much of their natural range.  They were successfully reintroduced in the 20th century and now they are pest in many places.  (I realize this is kind of the argument against wolves in the video, but I'll get to that later.)  There are few, if any, natural historical predators of these deer left besides man.  In many of those same places, hunters still don't think there are enough deer.  They also don't understand why they have poor deer.  

Fourth, people really need to look at the large-scale ecological scenario and impact of what's happening.  This is kind a close follow up to point 3 above.  Studies have shown how large elk herds (with no wolves present) in yellowstone have destroyed the vegetation in the region, especially in river/stream bottoms.  This severely effects the plant composition, the animals that depend on the native vegetation, the soil quality, the water quality, the animals in the water, erosion, etc.  The areas almost become baren.  Take an identical landscape with an elk herd where wolves are present, it's lush an natural because the elk avoid it because they are more prone to depredation those regions.  The wolves only have to occaisionally kill an elk there to remind them that they don't need to be there.

Fifth, the wolf population may be outgrowing the original bounderies and very well may be able to be delisted in certain regions, but they are only getting back to where they are supposed to be not where they were before we killed them all.  The guy said somthing along the lines of "We're having more problems with grizzley bears.  The wolves have to be causing it."  People need to realize that if you move into someone's home without their consent (the bears, wolves, wildlife in general, other people) you can't get mad at them for doing what they do.  Predators do a very good job of managing who gets what among themselves.

Sixth, Have I mentioned people have a tendency to screw things up?

Seventh,  I will be the first to admit that wildlife biologists aren't perfect and have made some serious mistakes in the past (predator eradication, most of the non-native plant/animals that were introduced, etc.).  I'm sure some practices we consider good now will be "what the hell were we/they thinking back then" in a few decades.  However, we are learning from our mistakes and generally headed in a better direction.

Eighth, there's likely a lot more to most anti-wolf people than just "they're killing our elk."  I'm sure many of these people have had livestock eaten by wolves.  I really do have some sympathy for them, but it goes back to living in the wolves home.  I realize that technically the wolves didn't live there when most of these people moved into the neighborhood, but it's still the wolves home.


                                                                                                                                                                       

My main point is that people really need to look at the entire picture instead of just one piece of it and that they need to look beyond what they "know" is right to what it was like before people messed it up.

I think that's it for now.  I may add more later, but I need a break from my soapbox.  

sledgemeister

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Re: Yellowstone is Dead...
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2011, 12:51:39 AM »
Whats the wolf population in Yellowstone?
A decrease from 17000 to 5000 elk seems rather dramatic, unless there is nothing else for the wolves to eat? I assume there are other animals they eat?
Surely the population would find a equalibrium between the two populations and with others such as bear as to where they all can survive.
IE if there is not enough elk then the wolf population would  also diminish as a result?

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Re: Yellowstone is Dead...
« Reply #5 on: Today at 03:04:31 AM »

mkm

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Re: Yellowstone is Dead...
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2011, 01:19:14 AM »
A quick search through some of my previously unread emails provided this update.

"Agreement Reached to Delist Gray Wolf in MT and ID

On 18 March 2011, the Department of Interior (DOI) announced that it has reached a settlement agreement with environmental groups that, if approved by the court, would pave a path to return state management of recovered gray wolf populations in Montana and Idaho while the Fish and Wildlife Service (FWS) considers the full delisting of gray wolves in the Rocky Mountain region. The agreement comes after 10 plaintiffs sued FWS regarding the 2010 reinstatement of Endangered Species Act (ESA) protections for gray wolves in the northern Rocky Mountains. The 2010 restoration of ESA protections was a decision made by a Federal District Court judge who ruled that the species could not be state managed in Montana and Idaho but under federal protection in Wyoming, following a 2009 delisting of the species in the northern Rocky Mountains.


Tracy Brooks/USFWS

The settlement requires that the DOI review the status of the gray wolf within four years via an independent scientific assessment and address future delisting of wolves in the region as a distinct population segment, not on a state-by-state basis. The plaintiffs have requested that the 2009 delisting be reinstated in the two states on an interim basis and agree not to challenge a regional delisting plan for five years, as long as populations are managed sustainably under approved state management plans. Federal protection would remain in Washington, Oregon, Utah, and Wyoming, and negotiations will continue between FWS and Wyoming until an agreement is made on a management plan that provides sufficient protections to wolves, should they be delisted within the state. Four plaintiff groups did not agree to the settlement and are therefore not subject to litigation constraints. The judge is expected to make a decision about the agreement soon.

Sources: E&E Publishing, LLC (Greenwire, E&E News PM), Department of Interior."

1. Whats the wolf population in Yellowstone?
2. A decrease from 17000 to 5000 elk seems rather dramatic, unless there is nothing else for the wolves to eat? I assume there are other animals they eat?
3. Surely the population would find a equalibrium between the two populations and with others such as bear as to where they all can survive.
IE if there is not enough elk then the wolf population would  also diminish as a result?



1.  A source found during that same search estimated the wolf population at nearly 1500 for the region including several states.  I cannot speak for the accuracy of that estimate.

2.  Many people don't realize how quickly a population can grow if left unchecked.  Elk are essentially cows with antlers.  Wolves do have other animals to eat, but, if the food supply is readily available, why waste energy on something else?

3.  Exactly, they've just got to find it, but it won't be rigid.  It will also depend on other environmental factors and the food supply of the elk.



PS insomnia is a bitch.

JC5123

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Re: Yellowstone is Dead...
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2011, 09:28:13 AM »
Allow me to lay some truth on you that you WON'T read about in any email.

First, the DOI used federal funds to reintroduce the wolves to Yellowstone. However they told the states that they were responsible for paying for the management. This has resulted in much higher license fees. Problem is, that they won't let the states manage them as they see appropriate. Some a$$hat judge in Oregon is making all the decisions about how they are to be managed.

Second, they can't understand why the wolves aren't staying in Yellowstone. Yea, like borders mean anything to a predatory animal.  ::) This has wreaked havoc with livestock producers in the area around Yellowstone. (Which constitutes the primary economy in that region) We are also getting CONFIRMED wolf sightings as far away as the medicine bow range. (roughly 250 MILES from Yellowstone)

Third, problem is that it's not so much that the wolves are killing the elk and bison herds in Yellowstone, but that they are displacing them. The herds are being chased out of the park. This is causing a huge scare with Brucellosis. A disease that has been kept confined to the bison herds in the park. With the herds fleeing the park they are no coming into contact with domestic livestock and risking transmission.

Last is the breeding habits of the non native wolves. Make no mistake, we eradicated the native ones. These are NOT native. Our native packs bred slower, as only the alpha male and female would mate. These new wolves are f$%king like bunnies. Multiplying faster than anyone predicted.

My point is that if the DOI is going to force us to manage their total goat f#$k then they can't bitch when we manage it OUR way. And the next time someone tells me the wolves are just being wolves and only trying to survive, I want them to think about the fact that wolves kill for sport. They will go after sheep and walk away from the kill. They do this to train their pups. I was taking to a rancher yesterday about his loss of ANOTHER guard dog to wolves.

The unofficial management policy in Wyoming has pretty much been shoot and shovel. Don't ask, don't tell. And if you get a collared one, slap that collar on the back end of a freight truck headed out of state. We didn't ask for them, we didn't want them. So as far as I'm concerned, and I know my opinion is echoed throughout my state, when it comes to wolves....Smoke a pack!   
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mkm

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Re: Yellowstone is Dead...
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2011, 11:15:18 AM »
JC, I am sure you know more about the daily happenings and nuances of the situation than I do.  I won't argue with you or doubt you about that those details.  You're up there, and I am not.  I appreciate the local input.

That many governments working together; I'm sure it's a cluster.  I do hate it that it's driving license fees up because, like I said, I want as many people to be able to get outside and enjoy hunting and wildlife as possible.

Wild animals, of any kind, don't know human borders.  It makes life very difficult when you're trying to track them; I know from experience.  They also have a innate way to find the folks that don't like them and avoid the ones that do.  Wolves also once lived in most of the country.

I know what brucellosis is and that it can be spread between species.  (Thanks for explaining it though, because I'm sure most reading this likely won't know about it.)  Please, allow me to pose a serious question.  Are they actually seeing it starting to be transmitted from wildlife to livestock, or is it just a fear at this moment? 

I know that the breeding habits of a source population can be maintained in future generations (see white tailed deer in AL). That may be the case here.  I have a suspicion though that it's more of a response to filling the void.  I could be wrong about that.  In the most strict of definitions, your version of non-native is correct; they were brought in from somewhere else.  Unless I missed something, they are the same species and that is typically where I draw my line about nativity.

I get it; I really, honestly do. As I said in my original post, there is a lot more to this than just some folks mad over low elk numbers.  I don't claim to have the solution to this emotional issue.  I don't mind the removal of a problem animal, but somehow there needs to be a happy medium found.

The unofficial management policy in Wyoming has pretty much been shoot and shovel. Don't ask, don't tell. And if you get a collared one, slap that collar on the back end of a freight truck headed out of state. We didn't ask for them, we didn't want them. So as far as I'm concerned, and I know my opinion is echoed throughout my state, when it comes to wolves....Smoke a pack!   

The technical term for that is Shoot, Shovel, and Shut up.   ;)

I again appreciate the input and enjoy a discussion among folks willing to be open to new ideas and concepts.  If both sides can take something beneficial away from the discussion, then the overall situation will begin to improve.

People have a tendency to screw up things.

Strictly related to the title of this video.  Removal of predators has likely done more to kill Yellowstone than these wolves ever will.

JC5123

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Re: Yellowstone is Dead...
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2011, 12:05:17 PM »
As to the removal of wolves, they have always been in Yellowstone. Just not in the numbers we are seeing now. It had to do with the strict breeding hierarchy of the native pack. That is also why people here are so touchy about these wolves being non native.

And as to the Brucellosis, for now we remain listed as Brucellosis free. But bison in the park continue to be tested positive for the disease. So yes for now it remains a fear, though a well founded one. We lost the status in 2006, and it took 2 years to reclaim it. Once off the Brucellosis free status, it becomes VERY hard to sell beef. Which is a vital part of our economy. We only have 3 major driving factors, minerals, ranching, and tourism.

I also remember all the town hall meetings, and discussions that happened before the reintroduction. Interior Secretary Bruce Babbit kept assuring us that outside of the park the wolves would be listed as predators and therefore we could manage them under the states current policy. However as soon as they brought the wolves in, that policy was changed.

So I guess the real issue is that the USFG keeps changing the rules, but still expects us to not only pay for it, but implement policies that go against management policies that have been successful here for as long as they have been in place.

The biggest gripe with the feds, is that from Washington, they have no clue what conditions are like here. Let them plant a few wolves where they live. And when they start going after pets and kids because they have no sheep, then let them tell us how to manage wolves. For now, all we are asking is that, if we are going to be footing the bill as a state, then we are going to handle this the way we see fit.

And if we manage wolves the way we handle everything else we will be just fine. For example, in this year of budget battles and states going bankrupt through poor legislation, and democrat rule, Wyoming just paid all it's bills and put another 1.8 billion in the bank.
http://sothebysjacksonhole.wordpress.com/

And this is accomplished with no state income tax and a state sales tax of 4%. If we can do that in "The great recession" Wolves should be no problem.  ;D
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CJS3

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Re: Yellowstone is Dead...
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2011, 05:08:00 PM »

Added after original post:   A downside to hunting vs natural predation is that hunters tend to remove the best, most fit individuals; whereas, predators tend to remove the weakest, oldest, less fit individuals. end of edit


What you're saying is true, but the concern of the outfitters regarding the elk herds is that "weakest" equals youngest. With fewer calfs, there is NO future for the elk herds.
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