Authorities: Live bullets fired at Old West show

[fightingquaker13]

This is a head scratcher. You'd think that there would be a simple ban on live ammo at these things and an inspection before the show started. I mean at bird dog field trials only blank guns are permitted, and every "weapon" is checked, as no one wants their $10,000 pointer shot in the ass by some nimrod. Its been that way for decades. You'd think the reneactors would have a similar rule. All ammo must be looked at by an official. It takes an extra half hour and prevents this sort of crap.
FQ13

[tombogan03884]

Good dogs are expensive, people are cheap.

[Solus]

Checking the guns is how it should be done.

It will stop the Idiots but not the Whack Jobs who could have a pocket full of live rounds.

Short of TSA type patdowns, there isn't much way of stopping them, and even that might be useless unless everyone who can get close to the shooters is also searched.

[tombogan03884]

Checking the guns is how it should be done.

It will stop the Idiots but not the Whack Jobs who could have a pocket full of live rounds.

Short of TSA type patdowns, there isn't much way of stopping them, and even that might be useless unless everyone who can get close to the shooters is also searched.

IIRC in one of his podcasts MB mentioned that for simunition type "Force on Force" training that is exactly what is done.
The idea being that the best way to prevent accidents is to eliminate as many variables as possible.

[fightingquaker13]

Good dogs are expensive, people are cheap.

Right up until they hire a lawyer.
FQ13

[Sponsor]

[Solus]

IIRC in one of his podcasts MB mentioned that for simunition type "Force on Force" training that is exactly what is done.
The idea being that the best way to prevent accidents is to eliminate as many variables as possible.

Yes.  But there the group is limited and contained.

Don't know how it was at that show, but unless the crowd was effectively isolated, it won't stop the nut job.

I guess the shooters can be corralled and watched till show time.

[tombogan03884]

Yes.  But there the group is limited and contained.

Don't know how it was at that show, but unless the crowd was effectively isolated, it won't stop the nut job.

I guess the shooters can be corralled and watched till show time.

There was a story about the old west, A magician came to town, one of his illusions was to "catch a bullet" in his teeth. the crowd watched as his assistant carefully aimed and fired a blank, and erupted into cheers as the magician spit out the bullet he had earlier secreted in his cheek.
A drunk in the audience yelled out "That's d*mned good, catch this one" and shot him dead.
The moral being you can't beat stupid.

[Michael Bane]

I don't mean to be harsh here, but my experience with re-enactors has NOT been good. My experience has been that they focus on their acting; the groups I've worked with haven't run a dedicated armorer, which is almost a necessity on a complex production (we run a dedicated armorer on our hard-to-film stuff), and oftentimes the actors provide their own guns and sometimes their own blanks.

That would not be acceptable to me...I prefer a single point check-in/check-out system, where there is one and only one person allocating blank ammo. When we have worked with re-enactor groups, we have treated their guns the same way we guns in sims--rigidly. I saw a pilot for a series that was put together by a big re-enactor group in the LA area, many of them stunt professionals...GOOD GRIEF, the gun-handling was TERRIFYING! It was honestly hard to watch, because virtually everything they did was wrong. This is pretty much consistent with some of stunt people I've been around...many have never had any Real World training or even any live ammunition training, and they see the guns as just another prop (which gives propmasters gray hair!).

The problem with acting troupes/re-enactors is that they may understand the mechanics of the moves. but they haven't really internalized the implications of the moves. As we move into a more F-on-F sim environment, we're going to have to address the implications on safety...I have already occasionally seen a more casual approach to gun-handling after long periods of F-on-F. It's a question without and answer right now...

Michael B

[twyacht]

This kind of thing killed Brandon Lee during the filming of "The Crow"....Lots of real guns on the set. Lots of blanks. Too many hands in the cookie jar. A Director that wanted as "realistic" a scene, and live ammo introduced into the mix....

Ball was dropped, safety was compromised,....somebody dropped the ball....and folks were hurt,...and in Brandon's case,...killed.

Single point, as MB posted is a firewall. All guns check in, all ammo checks out,....not just once, but two or three times.

During the Miami Vice days,...the armorer would literally lock down the set if one blank, or spent case was unaccounted for.

[tt11758]

MB makes the bottom line point......these aren't gun people, they're actors.  Assuming that actors know about guns is akin to assuming cops do.  Just because guns are part of the uniform, so to speak, doesn't mean they know "what Bess Truman spent 35 years trying to get Harry to call fertilizer" from Shinola about guns.