Need help with cartridge ID

[tombogan03884]

There were indeed two loadings for the 45-70. As I recall the difference was in powder charge which was cut to 50 grains from the original 70 in deference to the recoil from the Cavalry carbines.(Remember the failing mind.) That would have been a 45-50-405 instead of 45-70-405. You might be thinking of Winchesters 45-90 which was loaded with a 300 grain bullet. The 45 Gvt. head stamp, I'm told is modern stamping of no historical significance.

 As an interesting aside it has been written that if you saw the puff of smoke from a 45-70-405 and were some 300 yds. away you could side step the bullet. Having fired a few at 400 yds. I can believe it.

Tom, you're also correct about the 45 Auto Rim except it wasn't developed till after WW1. When the US entered WW1 there were not enough 1911 pistols available so both S&W and Colt chambered their large revolvers for the 45 ACP and designed the half moon clips so that all the empties could be ejected at once. The 45 Auto Rim was developed with at thicker rim to allow use of the old 1917 revolvers without half moon clips. I think it was some time in the 20's or 30's that someone developed the full moon clip. You can fire 45 ACP in these revolvers with out clips (they will head space correctly) but you have to extract the empties one at a time with your fingers.

Pecos

P.S. The 45-70 was not issued as a rimfire. It was chambered in the Trap Door Springfield which were designed as center fire.

Yes, that was the one I read about,  IIRC it was in an article in American Rifleman earlier this year.


Would the .45 Auto rim be usable in other chambers, such as ..45 long Colt or the shorter one the OP was asking about ?

[Pecos Bill]

Would the .45 Auto rim be usable in other chambers, such as ..45 long Colt or the shorter one the OP was asking about ?

Tom, You would have a problem with the rim thickness. The 1917 revolver cylinders were cut to leave space for the ACP rim and the half or full moon clips between the cylinders and the recoil shield. The Auto Rim's rim (say that really fast a half dozen times) is made thick to compensate for the missing clip. It's a great thought but won't happen.

It's interesting that Smith is now chambering some of its j frames for moon clips and shipping them with I think five. Makes a great poor man's speed loader. These, by the way, are in 38 Spl. and I don't think they'll work without the clips. That old space between the cylinder and recoil shield thing.

Pecos

[tombogan03884]

Tom, You would have a problem with the rim thickness. The 1917 revolver cylinders were cut to leave space for the ACP rim and the half or full moon clips between the cylinders and the recoil shield. The Auto Rim's rim (say that really fast a half dozen times) is made thick to compensate for the missing clip. It's a great thought but won't happen.

It's interesting that Smith is now chambering some of its j frames for moon clips and shipping them with I think five. Makes a great poor man's speed loader. These, by the way, are in 38 Spl. and I don't think they'll work without the clips. That old space between the cylinder and recoil shield thing.

Pecos

I knew they were still chambering (occasionally ) revolvers in .45 ACP and using the clips. I did not know they were doing it with .38's.

[GEvens]

I'm not sure if there ever was a cartridge marked ".45 Short Colt", but the general terminology resulted from the 1870's when the US Cavalry was being issued both Colt Single Action Army and S&W Schofield revolvers.  The Colt could chamber and shoot both the .45 Colt cartridge and the shorter .45 S&W (Schofield) cartridge, but the Schofield revolvers could only chamber the shorter round.  About this same time, the Army also reduced the powder charge in the .45 Colt cartridge so they were easier to shoot from horseback.  Because of the ammunition issue, the Army standardized on the .45 S&W cartridge in both guns to prevent problems that had originally occurred with Schofield-equipped units being issued .45 Colt cartridges.  Over time I believe the two cartridges were given the name "Long Colt" and "Short Colt" simply as an easy way for the user to indicate which cartridge they needed.  The Army eventually solved the problem when it sold off its Schofield revolvers, but it had a large amount of the shorter Schofield ammunition still on hand and continued to issue it to cavalry units for use.

[Pecos Bill]

When I was growing up in this game I never heard a reference to a "45 Short Colt" It's only been the last 7 or 8 years that I've heard the term. That's why I asked the question. None of my sources can quote a definitive source for this misnomer.

Thanks for all who contributed.

Pecos

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