Author Topic: How we have changed in two centuries  (Read 9562 times)

Pathfinder

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Re: How we have changed in two centuries
« Reply #20 on: August 08, 2011, 01:15:25 PM »
Bullsh!t. You know FQ, if you twist facts to insinuate an untruth you are still lying.
While it is true that different sects tried to f*ck each other every chance they got, and they all hated the Catholics, it does not change the fact that pretty much all of the founding Fathers were strong believers in some Christian faith.
Not one camel humper in the bunch.
I will point out that while I do not consider myself a Christian, my thinking is that it is the dominant philosophy of the people who built this nation, so either deal with it or leave.

According to Tom Lehrer, everyone hates the Jews! Catholics are second-string hatees.  ;D



Money quote at 1:10-1:20
"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do this to others and I require the same from them"

J.B. Books

fightingquaker13

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Re: How we have changed in two centuries
« Reply #21 on: August 08, 2011, 01:18:53 PM »
 The point of my post isn't to downplay the role of Christianity. It is however, to simply point out that we have never had religious unity given the seriouness of sectarianism, nor have we ever had political unity within Christianity. This why we have the 1A. The nation has never been as religiously homogenous in the ways that the religious right would like us to believe it once was. There was way to much division within Christianity over doctrine and politics. The civic religion (patriotism, the flag, revering the Constitution, supporting the uniform etc.) has played as important or a more important role as a unifier. And that Path, is the truth. We were founded by Christians, but we are held toghther by a whole lot more than religious unity. That is my point.
FQ13
 

Pathfinder

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Re: How we have changed in two centuries
« Reply #22 on: August 08, 2011, 01:26:26 PM »
The point of my post isn't to downplay the role of Christianity. It is however, to simply point out that we have never had religious unity given the seriouness of sectarianism, nor have we ever had political unity within Christianity. This why we have the 1A. The nation has never been as religiously homogenous in the ways that the religious right would like us to believe it once was. There was way to much division within Christianity over doctrine and politics. The civic religion (patriotism, the flag, revering the Constitution, supporting the uniform etc.) has played as important or a more important role as a unifier. And that Path, is the truth. We were founded by Christians, but we are held toghther by a whole lot more than religious unity. That is my point.
FQ13
 

Gee whillickers!! You mean, there are some Christians who haven't figured out we have done a marvelous job at building our own little version of the Tower of Babel? Wow, who'd-a-thunk it!!!! I mean, we only have like 50 different English translations of the Bible!!! And we all know how well the first Tower turned out . . . .  ::)

[/sarcasm]

You need to find better ways of arguing your point, as your approach leads to the whole anti-religion, anti-Christian memes.
"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do this to others and I require the same from them"

J.B. Books

tombogan03884

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Re: How we have changed in two centuries
« Reply #23 on: August 08, 2011, 02:27:20 PM »
According to Tom Lehrer, everyone hates the Jews! Catholics are second-string hatees.  ;D



Money quote at 1:10-1:20

LOL  ;D

Funny thing, those reactionary racist Confederates had the 1st Indian General, Stand Watie, and the 1st (Only ? ) Jewish vice President, Judah P. Benjamin, who had been serving as Confederate Sec. of the Treasury.
Apparently they were only prejudiced against the blacks they dealt with every day.

MikeBjerum

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Re: How we have changed in two centuries
« Reply #24 on: August 08, 2011, 05:30:40 PM »
I was going to wait until I did my research before responding to FQ, but since Mr. Bogan has entered the fight I will update, and he may have my info.  I lost my bookmarks in the last virus cleansing, so I need to redo my research.  However, my recollection is that the letter from Jefferson was to a foreign Ambassador.  I have thoughts, but need to dig deeper.
If I appear taller than other men it is because I am standing on the shoulders of others.

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Re: How we have changed in two centuries
« Reply #25 on: Today at 01:42:32 PM »

Solus

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Re: How we have changed in two centuries
« Reply #25 on: August 08, 2011, 06:16:35 PM »
I was going to wait until I did my research before responding to FQ, but since Mr. Bogan has entered the fight I will update, and he may have my info.  I lost my bookmarks in the last virus cleansing, so I need to redo my research.  However, my recollection is that the letter from Jefferson was to a foreign Ambassador.  I have thoughts, but need to dig deeper.

here is the Wikipedia entry for Separation of Church and State.

Who knows how accurate it is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state
Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!"
—Patrick Henry

"Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
— Daniel Webster

tombogan03884

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Re: How we have changed in two centuries
« Reply #26 on: August 08, 2011, 06:49:14 PM »
http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/ten-commandments-other-displays-mottos

Brief history
As the first settlers of this country migrated from Europe, so too did European customs like religious persecution and taxation to support a government church. Life in Colonial America preceding and during the American Revolution was filled with struggles to secure political and personal rights, including religious freedom, which the colonists sought to achieve by “disestablishing” the Anglican Church, as Chester Antieau, Arthur Downey, and Edward Roberts have described. Accordingly, the Constitution’s framers attempted to separate religion from government in the First Amendment. In the years following the adoption of the First Amendment on Dec. 15, 1791, courts and legal scholars have articulated many disparate interpretations of the establishment clause.

Before 1947, the establishment clause applied exclusively to the federal government. By and large this meant the Supreme Court exercised jurisdiction only over challenges of federal aid to religion, as Jeffrey W. Stiltner has noted. Early cases generally dealing with the establishment-clause principles include Terrett v. Taylor (an 1815 case concerning lands acquired by the Episcopal Church prior to the Revolutionary War), and Vidal v. Girard’s Executors (1844; regarding the founding of a Philadelphia college that banned any “ecclesiastic, missionary, or minister of any sect” from working at or visiting the college). (See also Reynolds v. United States (1879) and Davis v. Beason (1890), both of which considered the establishment clause in the context of a free-exercise claim regarding federal laws prohibiting bigamy).

More at link

fightingquaker13

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Re: How we have changed in two centuries
« Reply #27 on: August 08, 2011, 07:29:32 PM »
Here is the leter in its entirety M58. It was written to the Baptists of Danbury Connecticut.
FQ13
PS it is worth noting that at his death Jefferson did not consider the Declaration, but rather the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom, which was the model for the 1A as his greatest achievment.


Letter to the Danbury Baptists

To messers. Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson, a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.

Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.

Th Jefferson
 Jan. 1. 1802.


twyacht

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Re: How we have changed in two centuries
« Reply #28 on: August 08, 2011, 08:27:32 PM »
In direct answer to the OP,

1) Public executions are gone,....
2) Tar & Feathering is gone,....
3) Challenging someone to a duel is gone,.....
4) Barackolypse Now has run a deliberate rampant campaign of ruination to this country.
5) We can't utilize items 1-3, to deal with item #4.

I could make it a longer list,....
Thomas Jefferson: The strongest reason for the people to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against the tyranny of government. That is why our masters in Washington are so anxious to disarm us. They are not afraid of criminals. They are afraid of a populace which cannot be subdued by tyrants."
Col. Jeff Cooper.

Solus

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Re: How we have changed in two centuries
« Reply #29 on: August 09, 2011, 08:20:40 AM »
And yet, much of our foundational law comes from the 10 Commandments. Where else do the prohibitions of murder, stealing, adultery etc. come from?

Without those, the law is debased to a personal view of right and wrong. And to avoid Godwin's Law, I will note that Mao probably thought he was doing a pretty good thing by killing 10s of millions of his fellow Chinese (as well as the Chinese ethnics he thought no one would miss). Stalin too. With out a foundation that everyone can point to and say "That's why we have this the law", then it is fair game on everyone and everything - and there is no law except what those in power say is the law, which is what we are seeing in DC these days.

Path, prohibitions against murder and stealing are widespread is any religion.  They will all have exceptions to varying degrees, but they will be present if nothing else to protect the lives and property of the "clergy". 

Any functional society has had those prohibitions far before Christianity was established and far outside the realm of the 10 Commandments.

I don't believe Adultery is against the law in the US any longer, as should be the case.  It is a moral issue rather than a legal issue.

Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!"
—Patrick Henry

"Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
— Daniel Webster

 

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