Top tier, second tier, and so on...

[JLawson]

If you are talking 1911s these guys are all second tier. 

Your discussion is poorly framed and without any real definitions or parameters.  Such is common with discussions of this type.  Another Ford-Chevy thing.

Yes... I wanted to offer an open-ended question.  In your opinion, Ichiban, which 1911 makers are top tier?

[Solus]

Still looking at Top Tier as a single category.

In the automobile category,  Mercedes and BMW might be Top Tier, but not when measured by the performance criteria of a Ferrari and vice versa.  

the categories for a firearm need to be specific to the purpose it was designed to perform....and some of those features might be a disadvantage for other considerations.

Again, back to the automobile example.  A tweaked Camaro can outperform a Ferrari at the dragstrip, but put it on a road course and and the Camaro will lag behind.  

Also, from the automobile example, the cost of maintaining a Ferrari just to keep it tuned and replacing normal worn parts would probably buy a Camaro or two over it's life.  

How well it meets it's design objectives/dollar of cost might also be a criteria.

You can't expect a Ruger Mark II to meet the performance criteria of a .45 Casull and vice versa.  And neither one will meet the performance criteria for a Concealed Carry weapon.

This is what lead me to consider the performance of a firearm company would really be how well it's products met the criteria for the performance for which they were designed.

[ellis4538]

I don't place them in any order.  If I have a chance to try something I haven't, I do, otherwise I will not buy a brand I haven't tried out. I just buy what I like if it is a good deal and forget the rest.  I might be loosing out on something special, but that is my loss.

FWIW


Richard

[Ichiban]

Yes... I wanted to offer an open-ended question.  In your opinion, Ichiban, which 1911 makers are top tier?

I consider top tier 1911s to include (but not limited to) Wilson, Brown, Baer, Nighthawk, Volkmann, Rogers, and a handful of others that currently slip my mind.  While they may not function any better than the second tier, the fit, finish, and accuracy is better.  Oh, and of course, the bragging rights that come standard with a $3000.00 handgun.   

Personally, I can appreciate but do not covet guns of that status.  YMMV.

[tombogan03884]

I consider top tier 1911s to include (but not limited to) Wilson, Brown, Baer, Nighthawk, Volkmann, Rogers, and a handful of others that currently slip my mind.  While they may not function any better than the second tier, the fit, finish, and accuracy is better.  Oh, and of course, the bragging rights that come standard with a $3000.00 handgun.   

Personally, I can appreciate but do not covet guns of that status.  YMMV.

I'm disappointed Ichiban, You left out Randall and Coonan.   

[Sponsor]

[Ichiban]

I'm disappointed Ichiban, You left out Randall and Coonan.   

"and a handful of others that currently slip my mind. "  Always CYA.   

[billt]

The whole "Top Tier" thing comes from the AR-15 world where it defines if all of the Mil-Spec requirements are met. Colt, BCM, Noveske, Daniel Defense all meet the Mil-Spec and TDP, and are therefore considered "Top Tier". It filters down from there as to how much of the gun is Mil-Spec, and how much isn't. Some companies batch test MPI and HPT for bolt carrier groups, while other "Top Tier" builders check every one. Others like Olympic Arms don't do much of any of it. Their guns still run fine, but would never be considered by the military, anymore than they would consider a $9.95 toilet seat from Home Depot when they could get one for $10,000.00 by having contractors submit bids.

Now when you get into handguns all of this goes totally out the window because there is no Mil-Spec to be met, except for the Beretta M-9 Service Pistol. Many handguns cover that easily. From there it's all apples and oranges. In short, I don't think you can apply it because it all falls into personal choice, not a dictated specification.

For example someone might consider Weatherby a "Top Tier" builder because they like the high luster finish on a Mark V DeLuxe. Others think it's too pimped out, and prefer a matte "Tactical" finish, and so on. A Kel-Tec might wind up running better than a Springfield XD, or it might not. Which is "better"? It's almost impossible to ascertain.

[bafsu92]

The whole "Top Tier" thing comes from the AR-15 world where it defines if all of the Mil-Spec requirements are met. Colt, BCM, Noveske, Daniel Defense all meet the Mil-Spec and TDP, and are therefore considered "Top Tier". It filters down from there as to how much of the gun is Mil-Spec, and how much isn't. Some companies batch test MPI and HPT for bolt carrier groups, while other "Top Tier" builders check every one. Others like Olympic Arms don't do much of any of it. Their guns still run fine, but would never be considered by the military, anymore than they would consider a $9.95 toilet seat from Home Depot when they could get one for $10,000.00 by having contractors submit bids.

Now when you get into handguns all of this goes totally out the window because there is no Mil-Spec to be met, except for the Beretta M-9 Service Pistol. Many handguns cover that easily. From there it's all apples and oranges. In short, I don't think you can apply it because it all falls into personal choice, not a dictated specification.

For example someone might consider Weatherby a "Top Tier" builder because they like the high luster finish on a Mark V DeLuxe. Others think it's too pimped out, and prefer a matte "Tactical" finish, and so on. A Kel-Tec might wind up running better than a Springfield XD, or it might not. Which is "better"? It's almost impossible to ascertain.

I think if any high level specialty agency military or police, select a pistol as their issue gun then it should at the very least get a top tier nomination. Examples would be the HKmk23 (US Spec-Ops among others), Kimber TLEII/SIS (LAPD Swat/SIS), Springfield TRP (FBI-HRT [also allegedly use Nighthawk and Wilson pistols]) Les Baer Ultimate Recon (Dallas SWAT, Kansas City SWAT & more) etc. I put more stock into pistols used by groups who have a choice of anything they want.

[billt]

I think if any high level specialty agency military or police, select a pistol as their issue gun then it should at the very least get a top tier nomination. Examples would be the HKmk23 (US Spec-Ops among others), Kimber TLEII/SIS (LAPD Swat/SIS), Springfield TRP (FBI-HRT [also allegedly use Nighthawk and Wilson pistols]) Les Baer Ultimate Recon (Dallas SWAT, Kansas City SWAT & more) etc. I put more stock into pistols used by groups who have a choice of anything they want.

Or GLOCK!

[bafsu92]

Or GLOCK!

Kind of, I think you can't beat a Glock for price to quality to reliability and even though it is without doubt the highest used handgun by rank and file police and lots of the world's military I don't know of one special operations group or unit that uses them. I would assume the vast majority of "regular" cops and troops like them, easy learning curve and easy to maintain. The thing is true operators who can choose exactly what they want to carry, sometimes right down to the man never picks a Glock. Someone who has an advanced level of training and isn't really worried about ease of use and maintenance pick something that's pretty much hand built, usually by their own hand, an armorer/smith they personally know or a custom shop smith from one of the big 1911 builders or HK spec-ops division. For that reason only I'd have Glock right on top of the 2nd tier. Honestly though if you can't afford a pistol that's $1500-$2000 minimum and if you don't know how to take every piece off that pistol and rebuild it then a Glock is probably your best choice.