On Swimming and Shooting

[jaybet]

Ya caught me Bennie...I'm a thrill seeker.  Even though I suck, shooting is a big thrill. Swimming, eh...not so much. One arm over the other...that's about it. Now guitar playing....that's a drug.

[Steven Cline]

I was trying hard not to comment here, but I broke down.

If you fall out of a boat or the canoe sinks, just being able to tread water will go along way to keeping you alive.  You don't have to be an Olympic swimmer to make it to the other side.  Also, it's a good idea (and required in a lot of places) to keep a life jacket handy when boating.

As to swimming and shooting, I thankfully haven't done both at the same time, but I did swim with my gun.  There's a thread around here somewhere on that.  It's also reccommended that you use ball rounds while shooting in water.

That's actutally a great post.  Fits with the analogy being built.  Thanks for the contribution.  But in the analogy, treading water would be like pulling the gun and not using it.   With so many DGUs were no shots are fired that works... but what about when you HAVE to swim to shore.

[Steven Cline]

Steven,

Why don't you just start your own blog rather than utilizing an existing forum for your soap box?  There is a difference between posting and sharing, and writing volumes on a given topic.  I don't see much diversity in your posts, so I don't understand why you choose to utilize an established forum rather than develop your own business.

I see, the forum is for the free exchange of ideas except when y'all don't like the ideas?

[Steven Cline]

Maybe Water Polo is more the hot live action competition that should be mentioned.

Can teach the basics. control, all kinds of swimming skills....but hasn't much to do with living through your boat sinking in rough water.

Interesting.  How so.  Powerful treading water, strong burst of speed swimming.  Muscling in the water.  Strong basics carry one through in many/most situations.

I suspect you have more thoughts I like to hear.  Maybe experience with rough water you could share?

[Timothy]

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[mkm]

Steven, I don't disagree that gaming is fun, improves shooting skill (it's trigger time), and could help in a bad situation.  Admittedly, I've never done it.  However, I don't feel like gamers are the pinnacle of shooting.  Are you a better shot then me? Probably.  Are you faster than me? More than likely.  Do you send more rounds down range me? Definately, my current situation doesn't allow for much shooting.  Do I feel confident enough to get myself out of a situation? Yes.  The goal in concealed carry is to never have to use it, and, if you do, end the threat and SURVIVE.  I don't go out every day looking to go to war or shoot 20 people as fast as I can.

Now back to the swimming analogy.

The lap swimmers are use to swimming in a calm, clean environment with no interference.  They swim well because they put all of their focus on technique.  Throw a little salt, sand, dirt, turbulence, or bumping into the mix and they get distracted and slow way down.  They lose their focus and edge when things aren't like what they are used to.  An average swimmer with average ability may not be as fast or have as great of technique as the swim team member, but they aren't nearly as distracted when the setting isn't ideal.  They don't know that conditions are supposed to be ideal for their technique to work.  The Mythbusters (don't judge) did a test several years ago that dealt with swimming in syrup.  They swam on their on and had an Olympic level swimmer brought in to swim for them in the test.  What they found was that their times were more consistent between swimming in water and syrup than the professional.  He was so use to swimming in ideal conditions that he lost focus and couldn't be consistent in something less than ideal.

Personally, I don't think the swimming analogy is all that great.  It may be fairly accurate comparisons to an extent, but each is it's own distinct and very different sport.  Divers can't swim as fast as swimmers and swimmers can't dive as well as divers.  I'm willing to bet neither can tread water or hold their breath as long as a synchronized swimmer.  And, none of them can take the beating and keep on going that a water polo player can.  The one thing they can all do just as well as each other.....wait for it.....


























pee in the kiddie pool!

[Solus]

Interesting.  How so.  Powerful treading water, strong burst of speed swimming.  Muscling in the water.  Strong basics carry one through in many/most situations.

I suspect you have more thoughts I like to hear.  Maybe experience with rough water you could share?

Haven't done it lately but when I was in my late 20s, I led canoe trips in Canada for Explorer Scouts, a co-ed Post.

If your canoe swamps, you don't want to get out in the water, it will beat you against rocks, floating logs and what ever else is handy.

But sometimes you have to.... Like the time I had too pull the young lady siting in the bow of my canoe out of her seat before the canoe was sucked under a fallen tree.

But you you cannot overpower the water, the best you can do is get it to work for you.

Like maneuvering a canoe in swift water, if you want go to one bank and point the bow at that bank and paddle your heart out, you might make it, but it will be far down the river and you better have a ton of endurance.

On the other hand, if you point at the opposite bank, your broadside will be exposed to the current so that it washes you to the shore you want.  You will find your self paddling backwards in order to control your path as often as forward, and seldom at full strength output.

If you don't use that current when swimming, you will be fighting the current instead of letting it help you.

Not something any swimmer is going to learn in a pool, be it the deep end or kiddy pool, no matter what "water sport" they are pumping themselves up with.

[m25operator]

"OK. You've convinced me. Competitive shooting only improves trigger control, indexing, accuracy, safe weapon handling, target acquisition, transitions, recoil control, shooting on the move, shooting moving targets, shooting in different positions, drawing from a holster, shooting one handed, shooting targets of varying size, difficulty, and distance, and doing those things under the pressure of the clock. Clearly those are skills that are of little importance in self defense or tactical shooting. "  -The post which went ignored and unaddressed."

Steven, I agree with the above, however they are skill developement, no problem with that, but it does not include strategy, most of us are beyond new skill sets, but heavy on strategy. When I began, there were no rules other than our own, weak hand reloading, drawing weak hand, shooting over walls, swinging off ropes, and more, Things you would pay big money to learn now, We ran a hot range, every body was loaded as soon as they came in, never had an accident.  I am glad I got to do it, all of our scenarios were base on real life, set your watch to go off every hr or so and just look at were you were, make a stage based on that.

By the way, I am an NROI, chief range officer, my USPSA # A903 one of the 1st thousand.

[Steven Cline]

Steven, I don't disagree that gaming is fun, improves shooting skill (it's trigger time), and could help in a bad situation.  Admittedly, I've never done it.  However, I don't feel like gamers are the pinnacle of shooting.  Are you a better shot then me? Probably.  Are you faster than me? More than likely.  Do you send more rounds down range me? Definately, my current situation doesn't allow for much shooting.  Do I feel confident enough to get myself out of a situation? Yes.  The goal in concealed carry is to never have to use it, and, if you do, end the threat and SURVIVE.  I don't go out every day looking to go to war or shoot 20 people as fast as I can.

Well, thank you, but it's not really about me.

Now back to the swimming analogy.

The lap swimmers are use to swimming in a calm, clean environment with no interference.  They swim well because they put all of their focus on technique.  Throw a little salt, sand, dirt, turbulence, or bumping into the mix and they get distracted and slow way down.  They lose their focus and edge when things aren't like what they are used to.  An average swimmer with average ability may not be as fast or have as great of technique as the swim team member, but they aren't nearly as distracted when the setting isn't ideal.  They don't know that conditions are supposed to be ideal for their technique to work.  The Mythbusters (don't judge) did a test several years ago that dealt with swimming in syrup.  They swam on their on and had an Olympic level swimmer brought in to swim for them in the test.  What they found was that their times were more consistent between swimming in water and syrup than the professional.  He was so use to swimming in ideal conditions that he lost focus and couldn't be consistent in something less than ideal.

This response wasn't unanticipated.

And, you could be correct, but I don't think you are.  If you through in the sand, dirt, rough water and other distractions the swimmer slows down... all of the persons slow down.  This is why we should practice the shooting, practice the swimming.  Because the stronger the swimmer you are the less the adverse conditions affect you.

The better swimmer slows down the least, suffers the least under adverse conditions- his conditioning and technique suffer less from adjusting.

The poor swimmer can't adjust at all.  The poor shooter who has little confidence in a nice calm pool panics and drowns, the practiced swimmer doesn't.

I don't know if the mythbusters experiment was all that applicable.  

I'm been eyeballing the 10-8 standards and thought Falla did a hella good job maintaining consistently good pistol skills through the thing.  I've no doubt I could shoot those standards within the -0 and well under the par time.  The ones which worry me are the ones I don't practice- the one handed reload and rack off the belt.  But only because those are skills I don't I don't readily practice ( I did back on the SO, but haven't in 12 years).  

This might bring up an interesting side topic- should Falla be considered a better shooter than I if my anticipation is true?  Were I run consistent faster times than Jim and only miss par by .25 on two different standards?  I guess eveybody gets to make their own judgement.  I wouldn't pass or fail someone for sometime like that.  It's better used as a learning point- here's what you need to improve on.

Back to the thread.

Personally, I don't think the swimming analogy is all that great.  It may be fairly accurate comparisons to an extent, but each is it's own distinct and very different sport.  Divers can't swim as fast as swimmers and swimmers can't dive as well as divers.  I'm willing to bet neither can tread water or hold their breath as long as a synchronized swimmer.  And, none of them can take the beating and keep on going that a water polo player can.  The one thing they can all do just as well as each other.....wait for it.....
pee in the kiddie pool!

 

I really enjoyed the closure.  

While I disagree and believe the analogy is valid, we actually agree.  Here's why.  The diving is more like any of the skills an LEO or military fighter has and practices; driving maybe.  Operating the lights, radio, recalling 10-codes, etc.  Impressive, necessary, but not swimming.   The synchronized swimmers are like the SWAT and other entry teams- it's far more their work with the group/team that wins the day than their swimming ability.  While some might think I was being insulting by using synchronized swimming- I wasn't and meant no insult.  A swimmer can't jump into the pool with the synchronized swimmers and help them win the competition.  But, he would not need to be taught to swim, or even tread water.  He only needs to learn his place in the team and what's expected of him win.  For most, that wouldn't be the hard part.  Learning tactics is easy- learn to shoot is the hard part.

In the end I appreciate that you were considering the post and thinking and engaging in discussion.  Thank you.

[Steven Cline]

Haven't done it lately but when I was in my late 20s, I led canoe trips in Canada for Explorer Scouts, a co-ed Post.

If your canoe swamps, you don't want to get out in the water, it will beat you against rocks, floating logs and what ever else is handy.

But sometimes you have to.... Like the time I had too pull the young lady siting in the bow of my canoe out of her seat before the canoe was sucked under a fallen tree.

But you you cannot overpower the water, the best you can do is get it to work for you.

Like maneuvering a canoe in swift water, if you want go to one bank and point the bow at that bank and paddle your heart out, you might make it, but it will be far down the river and you better have a ton of endurance.

On the other hand, if you point at the opposite bank, your broadside will be exposed to the current so that it washes you to the shore you want.  You will find your self paddling backwards in order to control your path as often as forward, and seldom at full strength output.

If you don't use that current when swimming, you will be fighting the current instead of letting it help you.

Not something any swimmer is going to learn in a pool, be it the deep end or kiddy pool, no matter what "water sport" they are pumping themselves up with.

This exactly the kind of post I was hoping the thread would generate.

Am I correct in summarizing then that you are saying that there going to be situations that no diving, synchronized swimming, playing in the pool or lap swimming will prepare you for?  Situations where only specific instruction will save you?

How would the total inability to swim play into this?  How would not being as good of a swimmer hinder?

Please recall that the analogy is that we must all have to swim at some point... it's about swimming/shooting. 

Falling into the water and letting the life-vest keep one afloat is more like letting the police come do the shooting for you- save you when you jumped into the deep end not knowing how to swim.

Or, did I miss your point entirely?