Author Topic: Historic reminder  (Read 4844 times)

tombogan03884

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Historic reminder
« on: August 01, 2012, 11:02:30 AM »
In the case of Dred Scott V Sanford SCOTUS ruled that Scott, a black slave was not a citizen.
Justice Taney's decision explains why.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dred_Scott_v._Sandford#Decision

It would give to persons of the negro race, ...the right to enter every other State whenever they pleased, ...to sojourn there as long as they pleased, to go where they pleased ...the full liberty of speech in public and in private upon all subjects upon which its own citizens might speak; to hold public meetings upon political affairs, and to keep and carry arms wherever they went.

Gun control is never about guns, and never has been.
It's about control.

twyacht

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Re: Historic reminder
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2012, 08:51:24 PM »
Two sides to the equation,...but your premise is correct...

http://www.firearmsandliberty.com/cramer.racism.html

The Racist Roots of Gun Control

The historical record provides compelling evidence that racism underlies gun control laws -- and not in any subtle way. Throughout much of American history, gun control was openly stated as a method for keeping blacks and Hispanics "in their place," and to quiet the racial fears of whites. This paper is intended to provide a brief summary of this unholy alliance of gun control and racism, and to suggest that gun control laws should be regarded as "suspect ideas," analogous to the "suspect classifications" theory of discrimination already part of the American legal system.


Racist arms laws predate the establishment of the United States. Starting in 1751, the French Black Code required Louisiana colonists to stop any blacks, and if necessary, beat "any black carrying any potential weapon, such as a cane." If a black refused to stop on demand, and was on horseback, the colonist was authorized to "shoot to kill." [1]
Slave possession of firearms was a necessity at times in a frontier society, yet laws continued to be passed in an attempt to prohibit slaves or free blacks from possessing firearms, except under very restrictively controlled conditions. [2] Similarly, in the sixteenth century the colony of New Spain, terrified of black slave revolts, prohibited all blacks, free and slave, from carrying arms. [3]

BUT,....


http://www.pbs.org/saf/1301/features/lives5.htm

Until recently, historians have had to depend on slave owners' records and diaries to reconstruct the daily lives of slaves. These accounts indicate that owners tried to feed their labor force as cheaply as possible.

In a diary of his year as a plantation tutor in Virginia in the 1770's, Philip Vickers Fithian notes that the slaves were provided with a weekly allowance of "a peck of Corn, & a pound of Meat a Head!" Fithian goes on to mention that the owner of this particular plantation is, "by far the most humane to his Slaves of any in these parts!" *

Culling data like this from various accounts, historians estimate that an average weekly ration for each adult slave would have been something like one peck (or eight quarts) of corn meal, a pound of salt beef or pork and a little molasses or salt fish. That's a little over 2,000 calories a day, not nearly enough for hard manual labor. How did slaves survive?

Again, evidence discovered in the sub-floor pits helps clear up the mystery. While laws prohibited slaves from owning guns, flint and other gun parts excavated from the pits reveal that slaves did in fact have access to firearms. Bone fragments suggest that slaves hunted and fished to supplement their meager rations.

***

Many Blacks fought against the Union Army as well.
Thomas Jefferson: The strongest reason for the people to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against the tyranny of government. That is why our masters in Washington are so anxious to disarm us. They are not afraid of criminals. They are afraid of a populace which cannot be subdued by tyrants."
Col. Jeff Cooper.

tombogan03884

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Re: Historic reminder
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2012, 09:32:49 PM »
There is a University of Ga Professor doing a study who has documented about 8,000 black Confederate volunteers.

Solus

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Re: Historic reminder
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2012, 09:45:42 PM »
There is a University of Ga Professor doing a study who has documented about 8,000 black Confederate volunteers.


Sad fact is that they were defending the only way of life they knew.  What would they do without the master to provide food and shelter for them and tend to the details of their life.

Similar to the way those dependent upon government to provide for them and make their decisions for them vote for their masters today.
Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!"
—Patrick Henry

"Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
— Daniel Webster

tombogan03884

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Re: Historic reminder
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2012, 09:49:10 AM »
Sad fact is that they were defending the only way of life they knew.  What would they do without the master to provide food and shelter for them and tend to the details of their life.

Similar to the way those dependent upon government to provide for them and make their decisions for them vote for their masters today.

Horse crap.
Their motivation was the same as most Southern whites. Their home was being invaded.
Back in those days People were citizens of their State first because the majority of political power was vested in the State.
Like it's laid out in the Constitution.
The vast majority of Southerners didn't give 2 hoots about slavery, per se.
What they were mad about was uncompensated confiscation of private property, and a self righteous Federal Govt. that ignored the Rights of states and limits to it's own power .
The decision to claim the war was about "slavery" was some BS dreamed up by a Congressional committee well after the war began.

Sponsor

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Re: Historic reminder
« Reply #5 on: Today at 05:19:35 PM »

Solus

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Re: Historic reminder
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2012, 12:31:30 PM »
Horse crap.
Their motivation was the same as most Southern whites. Their home was being invaded.
Back in those days People were citizens of their State first because the majority of political power was vested in the State.
Like it's laid out in the Constitution.
The vast majority of Southerners didn't give 2 hoots about slavery, per se.
What they were mad about was uncompensated confiscation of private property, and a self righteous Federal Govt. that ignored the Rights of states and limits to it's own power .
The decision to claim the war was about "slavery" was some BS dreamed up by a Congressional committee well after the war began.

You make a distinction between "home" and "way of life".  I do not.
Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!"
—Patrick Henry

"Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
— Daniel Webster

tombogan03884

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Re: Historic reminder
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2012, 01:17:56 PM »
You make a distinction between "home" and "way of life".  I do not.

You should, the 2 are not the same, just like "clip" and "magazine".
A slave may not have been happy to be forced to build a cotton plantation, but that doesn't mean he was any happier seeing some Yankee send his work up in smoke.

DGF

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Re: Historic reminder
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2012, 03:10:27 PM »
" The decision to claim the war was about "slavery" was some BS dreamed up by a Congressional committee well after the war began. "

Tom,
The debate about Slavery vs States rights has been over for a long time. History has shown us that it was Slavery that was the primary cause of secession. I doesn't take much research to find that the States Rights argument does not stand up to even cursory examination. I would refer you Professor Galagher from the University of Virginia. He may well be the premier living Civil War scholar. His findings support the Slavery argument. He is far from alone in his beliefs, you will find that those that continue to beat the dead horse of the States Rights argument are pretty much on the fringe much like those that belong to the Flat Earth Society.

bigdrumdaddy

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Re: Historic reminder
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2012, 04:26:36 PM »
I'm affraid I must disagree. If you read history books shortly after the Civil War - up to the late 1930s - you'll find that slavery was hardly mentioned as a cause of the war. Neither North or South fought, specifically - or primarily - to end slavery. State's rights, and the North's invasion of the Southern states were the main cause - though you could argue that was precipitated by concerns over Lincoln's stand on the South's refusal to end slavery. Even that, though, is a red herring as the South offered to end the slave trade - and by etension, slavery - but were met with resistance (and some say a threat to secceed) from the New England shipyards and the states where they lay.
   In fact, a number of attempts - by a number of means - were proferred to end slavery, but the North wanted it ended overnight. This, of course, sounds simple enough - but not when the South's entire economy was at risk. So, while the South was willing to phase out slavery over time - the North was not. And while this was a contentious issue, the South felt it could be resolved peacefully. In the South the tipping point was Lincoln's provocative open recruitment of 75,000 volunteers to invade the southern states - who did indeed see themselves as a collection of individual "countries" of a sort. Case in point: Robert E. Lee would easily have taken the offer of command of Union forces had not Virginia seceeded. But with the secession of Virginia Lee could not bear to "raise his sword against his countrymen."
   It's a tedious issue indeed. But the biggest mistake when observing - and criticizing it - is doing so with today's morals and attitudes. A true historian (a double M.A. myself) knows that the biggest mistake we often make is judging people and events of the past through the lens of today when things were quite different in the past. Even terminology can change drastically from generation to generation, much less over numerous generations.
   To conclude, I see the Civil War as a fight over state's rights and continued and evolving central governmental control - with a number of issues at the forefront. Economic issues, moral issues, religious issues, state's rights - and, yes, slavery - all contributed to the coming of the war. You could almost equate that era with today's, as the government continues to insist on more and more control - womb to the tomb, as they say - and a growing number of the populace rebelling against an ever-bigger number of the populace who seem content to live off governmental handouts. Those governmental handouts, of course, come from the toil of the first group who's growing tired of paying for the pleasures enjoyed by the second at their expense. At their expense, of course, because the government has only the money they take from you and I. It's not unreasonable to assume that, at some point, a "Civil War" will develop over these and many other currently contenteous issues - and some historian in the future will blame it all (falsely) on the "rich getting  richer", "Not paying their fair share", etc - when we all know there exists a cornucopia of reasons, when boiled together to raise the temperature in society as a whole, something/some faction will have to give (as they say).
   As for the issue of blacks fighting for the south - it's one of the least known facts of the Civil War. Stonewall Jackson's brigade had hundreds of blacks serving as both fighting men, and teamsters, cooks, etc - just as whites did. And the 8,000 figure proferred may be woefully low. The true number may be as high as 20-25,000. And they fought not because they were promised their freedom (though some were), but for the same reason everyone in the South fought. Because their homes, their way of life, and the fruit of their labors were being invaded and destroyed - and the Union soldiers they came across generally cared about as much, or less, for them as did the Confederate soldiers who fought alongside them.
"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is that good men should do nothing."  ~ Edmund Burke

Timothy

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Re: Historic reminder
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2012, 04:52:05 PM »
bigdrumdaddy!

A most eloquent and interesting post.  Pretty much the same information offered me by a very good social studies teacher I had 40 years ago!

Thanks and welcome aboard!

 

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