Author Topic: New to 'Black' rifles and the like...  (Read 26529 times)

fatbaldguy

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New to 'Black' rifles and the like...
« on: September 20, 2012, 04:20:00 PM »
So I have some questions.

Platforms;  AR or HK or FN or AK or M1A  style? 
Caliber;   .223/5.56NATO or .308/7.62NATO or 7.62x39 or other? Keep it affordable for non-reloader
Barrel;  16 or 18 or 20 or 24 inches?
Optics;  I'm thinking something like a 1x4 for up to 400  yds.

I really like the concept of the Ruger Scout Rifle, but, the mags are priced hellaciously high.

 How 'bout some reasons please.  Bullseye would be primary use, but if the SHTF, insurance wouldn't hurt none.
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billt

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Re: New to 'Black' rifles and the like...
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2012, 04:49:26 PM »
Modern semi auto .308's like the Springfield SOCOM 16, and the DPMS AP-4 Carbine, along with carbine models of the PTR-91, and the VEPR AK Models have all but made the .308 bolt action Scout Rifle concept obsolete. With these bolt action Scout Rifles you don't get any better firepower, (20 round magazines are max.), or any better accuracy, so I just don't see the advantage of them.

tombogan03884

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Re: New to 'Black' rifles and the like...
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2012, 05:33:44 PM »
If you want something to shoot bullseye go with the AR in either  .223/5.56 or 308/7.62 or else the M1A.
HK is supposed to be real accurate, and you can use G-3 magazines at $5-10 each, BUT, the fluted chamber makes reloading a PITA, and if you ever need to replace the barrel the supply is very limited, because very few companies are set up to flute the chamber.
The AK is strictly a fighting/ hunting/ plinking carbine, neither the rifle or the cartridge are designed for one hole groups, you might get them, but it will be more due to you skill, and getting lucky than to the inherent accuracy of the gun and load which were designed to be "good enough".

PegLeg45

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Re: New to 'Black' rifles and the like...
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2012, 06:43:03 PM »
-The AR platform in any caliber will be the most versatile.

-You can buy the widest range of upgrades, gadgets (if that is your thing) and shoot multi-calibers in one AR rifle with some extra parts kept on hand.

-While the AK 7.62x39 ammo is probably the cheapest of the lot, the rifle/ammo platform is not the most accurate, as Tom pointed out.

-If kept to 400 yards and under, the 5.56 with the right bullet, or another caliber option that will fit that size lower will work (IMHO).

-Also, under 400 yards and you can go with the 16" or 18" barrel and still get great accuracy...... particularly if the barrel is free floated and you can find the rifles "pet" load. A good friend has a Rock River with a 16" heavy barrel and it shoots MOA groups at 300 yards (I can't remember the loads he uses). The shorter barrel would also aid in portability in a SHTF or home defense situation.


Humbly submitted as an opinion, for what it is worth.   ;)
"I expect perdition, I always have. I keep this building at my back, and several guns handy, in case perdition arrives in a form that's susceptible to bullets. I expect it will come in the disease form, though. I'm susceptible to diseases, and you can't shoot a damned disease." ~ Judge Roy Bean, Streets of Laredo

For the Patriots of this country, the Constitution is second only to the Bible for most. For those who love this country, but do not share my personal beliefs, it is their Bible. To them nothing comes before the Constitution of these United States of America. For this we are all labeled potential terrorists. ~ Dean Garrison

"When it comes to the enemy, just because they ain't pullin' a trigger, doesn't mean they ain't totin' ammo for those that are."~PegLeg

fightingquaker13

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Re: New to 'Black' rifles and the like...
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2012, 06:49:43 PM »
Ditto to Tom. If an accurate range toy is what you want you might find an excellent AR and eotech in the classified section for short dollars. ;) If you want scary accurate, I'd go with a 20" free float H-bar and a fixed A2 (or other fixed) stock. You can also get some nice competition trigger groups, but those can run 2 bills and up. Just figure out what you need. Personally I'd go 5.56 or .308 just because of ammo availability if you don't reload. Obviously, 5.56/.223 is going to be a lot cheaper in every respect (from gun, to mags, to ammo), but it will limit your range.
FQ13
And Welcome aboard.

PS Edited for Timothys sake (why don't we have a flipping the bird emoticon)?

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Re: New to 'Black' rifles and the like...
« Reply #5 on: Today at 01:05:12 PM »

alfsauve

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Re: New to 'Black' rifles and the like...
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2012, 10:24:53 PM »
So I have some questions.

Platforms;  AR or HK or FN or AK or M1A  style? 
Caliber;   .223/5.56NATO or .308/7.62NATO or 7.62x39 or other? Keep it affordable for non-reloader
Barrel;  16 or 18 or 20 or 24 inches?
Optics;  I'm thinking something like a 1x4 for up to 400  yds.



YES to all the above. 


Well, all except the optics.   I don't think I've seen a 4mm objective.  You mean a 1-4x maybe?  [Just pullin' your chain.  Don't get out  FQ's finger icon.]    I'd do more of a 3-9x40mm.   For "target shooting" at distance a little power doesn't hurt.   Maybe look at the Nickon -223 scopes.     

Of course you realize that some organize shooting doesn't allow optics so you may want to allow for iron sights as well.

Will work for ammo
USAF MAC 437th MAW 1968-1972

tombogan03884

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Re: New to 'Black' rifles and the like...
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2012, 08:41:04 AM »
Here's a link to Midway's selection of fixed power scopes ;

http://www.midwayusa.com/find?&newcategorydimensionid=11496

If you go with a Mil Dot reticle on a variable power scope any change in the power setting changes the scale of the reticle, meaning you need to recalculate all your range and hold numbers.
Not a problem with fixed power.

PegLeg45

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Re: New to 'Black' rifles and the like...
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2012, 11:12:36 AM »
Here's a link to Midway's selection of fixed power scopes ;

http://www.midwayusa.com/find?&newcategorydimensionid=11496

If you go with a Mil Dot reticle on a variable power scope any change in the power setting changes the scale of the reticle, meaning you need to recalculate all your range and hold numbers.
Not a problem with fixed power.

That depends on which focal plane the reticle crosshairs are in. You can pay a little more for a scope with the reticle in the first focal plane and it does not change with magnification. They are few and far between, but are out there.

**edit""
John Barsness writes a lot about scopes in GUNS magazine and online and has a lot of good info:

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/newsletters/September_2011.html

http://www.accurateshooter.com/optics/modern-varmint-and-hold-over-reticles/

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/newsletters/September-2010-newsletter.html

"I expect perdition, I always have. I keep this building at my back, and several guns handy, in case perdition arrives in a form that's susceptible to bullets. I expect it will come in the disease form, though. I'm susceptible to diseases, and you can't shoot a damned disease." ~ Judge Roy Bean, Streets of Laredo

For the Patriots of this country, the Constitution is second only to the Bible for most. For those who love this country, but do not share my personal beliefs, it is their Bible. To them nothing comes before the Constitution of these United States of America. For this we are all labeled potential terrorists. ~ Dean Garrison

"When it comes to the enemy, just because they ain't pullin' a trigger, doesn't mean they ain't totin' ammo for those that are."~PegLeg

fightingquaker13

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Re: New to 'Black' rifles and the like...
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2012, 11:27:34 AM »
If you want glass let me reccomend two and 1/2 scopes. The first is the old Bausch and Lomb Elite series. They are great at light gathering (no mil dots). They are discontinued and live on Ebay and Gunbroker. Anything less than $350 is a steal. Then their current incarnation is the Bushnell Elite series, the successor company. Same scope, just a different name. I would also look hard at the Cabela's Alaskan Guide series scopes, these are very nice for the $$$. Nikons are nice, but for the small $$$ difference between them and Leupold? Well....
FQ13 Who would also say that a good eotech on a nice DPMS is pretty darn accurate. Just sayin'. ;)

Magoo541

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Re: New to 'Black' rifles and the like...
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2012, 01:31:43 PM »
FQ13 Who would also say that a good eotech on a nice DPMS is pretty darn accurate. Just sayin'. ;)

I think I saw one of those for sale somewhere...

 ;)
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