FBI analysis of a shoot out - NSFW and the squeamish

[ske1eter]

107 rounds fired and 17 hits? Sounds bad, but when you're ambushed and taking fire from out of nowhere and your buddy is hit? Its probably not half bad.

But these are professionals that are more qualified to carry guns compared to us regular every day shlubs....

[Solus]

But these are professionals that are more qualified to carry guns compared to us regular every day shlubs....

17 hits, 11 exited which most likely were not center mass hits

The presentation is not clear in what it is trying to show.  Maybe that is the 'cop' mentality...just list facts in what ever order pops up without regard to building any logical pattern.....that is for the DA to do...

And about not expanding in 1" of penetration, it might depend upon the definition of 'expansion'.   A round will fully expand with less than 1" of penetration against a steel plate...but that would be called flattened. 

Perhaps the rounds flattened against ribs or breast bone.

[tombogan03884]

Solus, go back and read the whole article.
It starts off talking about what was REPORTED, at the end , listed under "FACTS" it tells what they actually found, and the lessons learned from it.
It seemed pretty straight forward and easy to follow to me .

[PegLeg45]

Solus, go back and read the whole article.
It starts off talking about what was REPORTED, at the end , listed under "FACTS" it tells what they actually found, and the lessons learned from it.
It seemed pretty straight forward and easy to follow to me .

That's the way I took it also.



What was originally said:

Initial Concerns of Police
• Stemmed from apparently inaccurate initial information from Coroner and/or Medical Examiner.
• Resulted in a belief by Police officials that .40 S&W ammunition failed and .223 ammunition “saved the day”.
• Prompted the SWAT TL to post information on NTOA website.

What was "inaccurately" circulating around the internet (and ended up on the FBI Website):

NTOA Blog
• All,
• The following was posted on an NTOA blog last night:

• 3 officers were involved in a shooting this week.  An ambush was set up for the officers prior to their arrival, they took fire while still in their cruisers.  One officer was hit in the forearm, another received wounds to his forehead from a ricochet, another was injured (NFI).  The suspect was armed with a .45 handgun. The officers were armed with Glock 22's and SPEER 180 gr. Gold Dot Hollow Points.

• Officers fired on the subject and hit him in the left arm, completely shattering the bone.  He was also hit five times in the chest and abdomen. All rounds penetrated less than 1". All of the rounds expanded fully but did not cause incapacitation due to the lack of penetration.  According to the Medical Examiner, none of the rounds caused any life threatening injuries. The subject also received one round into the front of his throat, it penetrated less than 1" as well. The Medical Examiner stated that the recovered rounds were in pristine condition (still had rifling marks on them).

• The subject was wearing a down jacket at the time of the incident. He was finally taken down after receiving rounds from an M-4 .223, with Hornady Tap 55 gr ballistic tip rounds and Hornady Tap 72 gr. Hollow Points.

• The officer with the M-4 was able to shoot underneath a vehicle and hit the suspect in the ankle. The officer then flanked the subject, who continued to engage officers, and was eventually killed by the officer with the M-4.

• The subject had a trace amount of marijuana in his system.

• Range between subject and officers: 20 feet.

• Subject had a t-shirt on under his jacket.

• Subject received approximately sixteen .223 rounds, thirteen of these rounds went completely through. One round struck his hip and completely shattered it.  Another .223 round struck his aorta and another pierced and collapsed his lung. Both of these rounds lodged themselves inside the subject. The Medical Examiner stated that the .223 rounds caused massive internal damage.

• This is the second shooting that the PD has experienced where they had to shoot a subject in excess of ten times with .40 S&W ammo to incapacitate or kill. There was another incident where a subject was shot inside of his vehicle. He was struck approximately ten times, all the while continuing to fire at officers. He was eventually killed after suffering a shot to the back of his head.  In this same incident, the back of the subject's seat was struck multiple times, the .40 S&W rounds never penetrated through the seat. In this incident, all shots had passed through either the windshield or rear window. Investigators assume that this was the reason for the poor ballistic performance.

So, The FBI got into the details:

FBI/DSU Involvement
• NTOA post was disseminated over the FBI’s intranet by an FBI Special Agent.
• “Snowball” effect resulted in numerous phone calls/emails to DSU and BRF which questioned the performance of FBI .40 S&W service
ammunition.
• BRF contacted the involved PD and Pa. State Police, responsible for the shooting investigation, to offer assistance.

And found:

BRF Testing of Officer’s Ammunition on 12/15/06
• Consistent with all bare gelatin and barrier testing done previously for ammunition data CD.
• Results of Speer 180 gr. Gold Dot satisfy FBI standards for terminal performance.
• Results of Hornady 55gr. and 75 gr. TAP do not satisfy FBI standards for terminal performance.


Facts
• At least 107 rounds (.40/.223) were fired by two officers.
• First officer on scene seriously wounded in left forearm and seat-belted in cruiser was unable to return fire.
• Assailant fired 26 rounds and reloaded magazine from box of loose ammunition.
• Assailant was shot 17 times with 11 rounds exiting body.
• Incident lasted approximately 3.5 minutes.


Facts
• Six .40 S&W rounds, five which expanded, were recovered on autopsy.
• It is impossible for .40 S&W 180 gr. JHP ammunition to expand with only 1 in. or less penetration in a human body.
• After all .223 rounds had been fired, assailant was hit with 180 gr. Gold Dot in right arm above the elbow.
• Officers had to “fight” assailant in order to get handcuffed.


Lessons Learned
• There is plenty of inaccurate information regarding ballistics/terminal performance disseminated on web forums, even those which are
dedicated as LE only.
• The .40 S&W ammunition did not fail in this incident.
• The performance of the .223 TAP ammunition, although consistent with manufacturer’s claims, did not perform terminally as this Police Department expected.

Lessons Learned
• Determined individuals can sustain many gunshot wounds in areas that produce great pain and continue to fight a long time, even
without the aid of drugs or alcohol.
• Shot placement is everything in a gunfight and always the key to stopping a threat effectively.

Someone, somewhere, mixed the information from the autopsy as it pertained to penetration and expansion....and then posted it as truth.

[Solus]

Solus, go back and read the whole article.
It starts off talking about what was REPORTED, at the end , listed under "FACTS" it tells what they actually found, and the lessons learned from it.
It seemed pretty straight forward and easy to follow to me .

Well, part of the problem I had was that the bottom of the page with small print was missing.  ....left me feeling I didn't know what was left out, so it made the rest seem as guesses to me.

I'll check it again

Update:   Maybe it is just poorly worded..or I expect things to be more precise in their meaning.

For example under the BFR testing heading

Results of Speer 180 gr. Gold Dot satisfy FBI standards for terminal performance.

I can only assume they mean the testing of the Speer round satisfied the FBI standards  ..the results are OF the testing FOR the Ammo, not of the ammo.

It also states that the Speer round passed the FBI test and the TAP .223 round did not.   Well, they can't pass the same test.  The FBI test is for handgun cartridges, not rifle rounds.   The test has a maximum penetration in gel of 18".   This is to insure that all energy is delivered to the target and indicates the round expanded enough to do so.  That is not a lot of gel for a high powered rifle round.

Why put an Apples and Oranges statement in the mix.

What does "CD" mean in this statement:  Consistent with all bare gelatin and barrier
testing done previously for ammunition data
CD.

Also, under Lessons learned, how much more meaningless can the statement:  

The performance of the .223 TAP ammunition, although consistent with manufacturer’s claims, did not perform terminally as this Police Department expected.


be if they don't list what was expected.  Did the dept. expect one shot kills with hits to a hand or foot?


From what is listed it seems the fight stopper was the shot to the right arm, likely disabling the bad guy's shooting hand allowing the officers to wrestle with him and cuff him....and he died later of .223 wounds


It just leaves way to many assumptions to be drawn from what they present for me to make many fact based observations.

Even the last line about shot placement.  While I have enough common sense to know they don't mean this, there statement does leave it open.   Shot placement is what matters, caliber is not important.   If that was the case, we'd all be using BB guns and Air Rifles.  

Maybe I'm just a grouchy old man who can't use common sense to tell what folks really mean to say, but I don't think presentations should be passed off as official and professional if they require that to have meaning.

Sorry for the rant...I guess    

[Sponsor]

[tombogan03884]

I don't understand what you could find unclear about

"• Shot placement is everything in a gunfight and always the key to stopping a threat effectively"

[Solus]

I don't understand what you could find unclear about

"• Shot placement is everything in a gunfight and always the key to stopping a threat effectively"

It is clear..just not accurate.

If placement is everything, then the caliber of the round doesn't matter...and I maintain that it does....or we'd all be using BB guns.

Though, I will say that a well placed hit with a BB is better than a miss with .50 AE, it isn't going to be much more effective at stopping the fight.

And no, I wouldn't enjoy getting shot with a .22 LR...or by a BB ...but I'd sure pick either one over a .45 ACP.

The true statement is something like:    Bullet placement with the most effective round you can handle is the key to stopping a threat effectively.

P.S.  I know I can go back through the threads and find this said by many here previously. 

[kmitch200]

It's unreasonable to try to attribute a statement released by the FBI for cops in the National Tactical Officers Association to relate to BB guns.
It doesn't matter what caliber is used because ALL COPS USE GUNS from 9mm to 308.
 
Not BB guns, pellet guns or blow guns or spitwads, real honest to God shootin' irons.

As far as the "dept's expectations" of 223 ammo, I can imagine that the dept didn't expect them to pass through the BG's body since the manufacturer's gel testing shows EXTREME expansion/fragmentation and minimum penetration.

(the Hornady catalog doesn't list a "72gr" load, I suspect this is a typo. They show a 62gr load and a 75gr load)

http://www.hornadyle.com/assets/site/files/hornady_tap_report.pdf

[tombogan03884]

The Dept obviously did not include any military veterans with actual combat experience.
Over penetration has been a major complaint about the 5.56 from Vietnam to Mogadishu, and probably today.
Don't take my word for it.
Ask Paul Howe, he is quoted in "Blackhawk Down" as complaining about the M-16 rounds just zipping through the "skinnies" without stopping them.

[Solus]

It's unreasonable to try to attribute a statement released by the FBI for cops in the National Tactical Officers Association to relate to BB guns.
It doesn't matter what caliber is used because ALL COPS USE GUNS from 9mm to 308.
 
Not BB guns, pellet guns or blow guns or spitwads, real honest to God shootin' irons.

As far as the "dept's expectations" of 223 ammo, I can imagine that the dept didn't expect them to pass through the BG's body since the manufacturer's gel testing shows EXTREME expansion/fragmentation and minimum penetration.

(the Hornady catalog doesn't list a "72gr" load, I suspect this is a typo. They show a 62gr load and a 75gr load)

http://www.hornadyle.com/assets/site/files/hornady_tap_report.pdf

The report says that the .223 performed consistent with the manufactures claims, so they must have expected something other than what the manufacture claimed.  I can't imagine what that might be.