FBI analysis of a shoot out - NSFW and the squeamish

[TWillis]

I'm not here to play the game of this one caliber sucks and this other caliber is the answer and if you had listened to the interview I suggested you would have heard that even though this police dept was carrying a higher power cartridge and getting great results, other departments were not getting the same results the difference was that their dept trained twice a month versus two days a year. The point is this metropolitan police force that was getting decent training and range time was a great testing ground for ammo as there were multiple incidents with trained personal providing the least amount of variables. In that interview they specifically talk about the 40 S&W and advocated the 155-165grn round over the 180grn due to its higher velocity and better ability to transfer energy. Interesting enough an officer using the 165grn Ranger T-Series had a one stop shot on a charging black bear @ 20 feet during the Ohio wild animal release(Lions,Tigers & Bears oh my). So maybe there is something to this.
        As far as police yes large depts in many areas dictate what gun and round you can carry but many do not I live in the west in the fourth largest city in my state and our officers can carry what they want off of an approved list if they provide their own ammo for training. Same with our sheriff's dept & state patrol. I'm a citizen so I'll carry what I want. As far as the 5.56  I don't care It's not what I use. As with every incident I examine I try to take from it what I can learn and leave the rest. To go back to the interview I suggested, Your in a fight your looking for the weapon that you are using to have an affect so that you can close and end the fight turning the fight so your opponent feels he is losing giving you the opportunity to dominate the conflict. Either the officers involved in the shooting did not capitalize on their hits to gain the advantage to end the fight or they were not given the chance to capitalized because their hits were taken without affect. That is the real question here.
       Finally here's a scenario you come out to your car a guy is walking around the parking lot muttering to himself you see him turn and run at you with a butcher knife (or whatever knife suits you) you empty your 380 pocket rocket @ him in that classic two shots to the body
one to the head hitting him every time. He chases you down as you are running away and kills you. Why well one of your shots was right on the money to the heart but it hit this pesky thing called the breast bone and stop 3/8th's of an inch from the heart after flattening out(this actually happened with a 40S&W in the case I saw) the other hit the lung he'll die from his lung collapsing but not for another 10-15min about the time you finally bleed out. What about your head shot well you shot a tad high missing that 2"X 6" killzone and the bullet followed the ogive of his skull leaving him with a hard lead lump under his scalp back by his neck you next head shot hits him check not entering the brain pan and blowing out the back of the neck a rather harmless wound all and all. And that is how you die after getting you hits you die quicker if the guy has a gun. Hits need to have an effect not everyones going to turn rabbit or lay down and cry cause they got shot even though most do. If only hits counted we would all carry airsoft. To be clear I think one should carry the maximum power they have trained up to and can carry within reason (no red flyer wagon for carting around the 500 S&W) If its 9mm 115+P+ or 125+p and up and so on.

[tombogan03884]

So, you seem to be saying a person would get better results from the .44 magnum they left in the car because it was to heavy to carry 24/7 ?

[ZombieTactics]

Just a side comment to the effect that I have trouble with run-on sentences, bad logic and arguments based upon raw conjecture.

[TWillis]

Why does everyone go to extremes. First it was someone throwing out the 50 AE now it's the 44 mag. What about the 357 Sig or the 10mm Those are viable steps up in power. I don't carry the 44mag or the 357mag very often for several reasons 1. I can get similar power in that range from a striker fired pistol that greatly reduce (perceived) recoil due to their low bore axis. 2 I don't like the lack of capacity even with speed strips or loaders.  As far as not carrying you gun cause it's heavy that up to you I've found a system that works for me and carry during all my nonworking hours even in my house and yard I really don't notice it anymore.
       One reason people don't carry these calibers is the cost of training and ammo. However with most of the striker fired pistols in these calibers you can get conversion barrels so you can train with cheap 40 S&W or 9mm. So your never without ammo even if your main defensive ammo gets scarce.
       That raw conjecture was a combination of 4 different real life shootings where people made hits and the bullets didn't perform as expected and didn't stop the aggressor. ( The one through the cheek was a cop shoot by a guy with a 357mag @ point blank range he thought of his kids got back up and killed the guy who had let his guard down after "shooting the threat in the head")
       Final thing, I found Michael's podcast this week especially meaningful. When I first transitioned to the gun I carry I wasn't as proficient as I wanted to be (some day's I downright sucked) I didn't blame it on the gun's fit or the recoil or my hand size. I redoubled my efforts to focusing on the fundamentals and step by step I got better and better. I couldn't agree more with his lesson on not being afraid to fail in your effort to learn.

[tombogan03884]

I picked the .44 mag for my example because every one would understand that it's a heavy gun to carry.
That isn't necessarily the case with an issue size gun like a 1911 . I have no problem carrying mine everyday .
But I don't have it with me when I'm wearing sweats, or a bathrobe.
My Kel Tec is on my person if I'm walking around the house in my skivvies .
The only 2 places the Kel Tec is not actually on my person are in bed or in the shower.

[Sponsor]

[TWillis]

Interestly enough Talo's version of the  Smith & Wesson 3 inch weighs 39.6 oz only 1.6 oz over a full size kimber. Still that's only a 3 inch barrel. However back to the what this threads really about, this shooting. To bad there's not more info. I wonder If the bullet in the guys neck possible went through the sheet metal of the car or window glass? It didn't penetrate very far and that may be the reason. Some one tell me if this is wrong (or I missed some important info) it looks like most of the 5.56 rounds hit while the perpetrator was lying on the ground after the officer shot under his cruiser and blew the guys foot out (nasty) causing him to "possible?" fall with his upper torso behind the wheel and axle. If so that would explain the shots crossing the body and being mainly focused in the lower body. The officer may have been shooting at all there was available. No way to know if this was what happened but the indicators are there that it could have gone down that way.