What went wrong ?

[tombogan03884]

I'm currently rereading "Gods and Generals", Jeff Shaara's account of the years before the battle of Gettysburg portrayed in his fathers book "Killer Angels".
Shaara describes an incident where  former US Army Lt Col Robert E. Lee has refused command of the Federal Army, resigned his commission, and is on his way to accept command of the Va State forces.
As he walks to the Governors office he pauses to contemplate a statue of George Washington and asks himself, "What changed ?
Why didn't it work ?"
He goes on to consider the Great men, Adams, Madison, Washington, Jefferson .
Reading that it dawned on me exactly what went wrong .
The Constitution was written for men of honor , men of integrity, reason, and character.
The flaw was that we got everything but, instead of men of integrity, reason, and character, we got politicians and nothing written by the first sort can ever protect against the second sort.

[JLawson]

According to information found at http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/uscongress/a/congresspay.htm :

During the Constitutional Convention, Benjamin Franklin considered proposing that elected government officials not be paid for their service. Other Founding Fathers, however, decided otherwise.

Do you think ol' Ben had the right idea?  Would we have better Representatives and Senators if they worked solely from a sense of duty and service to the Nation?  Would unpaid politicians be more likely to exhibit the honor, integrity, and character that we so desperately need in Washington?

[Solus]

I'm currently rereading "Gods and Generals", Jeff Shaara's account of the years before the battle of Gettysburg portrayed in his fathers book "Killer Angels".
Shaara describes an incident where  former US Army Lt Col Robert E. Lee has refused command of the Federal Army, resigned his commission, and is on his way to accept command of the Va State forces.
As he walks to the Governors office he pauses to contemplate a statue of George Washington and asks himself, "What changed ?
Why didn't it work ?"
He goes on to consider the Great men, Adams, Madison, Washington, Jefferson .
Reading that it dawned on me exactly what went wrong .
The Constitution was written for men of honor , men of integrity, reason, and character.
The flaw was that we got everything but, instead of men of integrity, reason, and character, we got politicians and nothing written by the first sort can ever protect against the second sort.

You are absolutely right, Tom.

Many years ago, I heard two back to back news stories on the radio.  

The first was about the conviction and sentencing of a man who killed his daughters rapist when the rapists trial was thrown out because of a minor technical error in procedure.  He walked...but not far.  The father shot and killed him in the court room as soon as the judge ruled.   At his trial, the father would not repent...said he would do it in the same circumstances.  Sentenced to 20+ years.

The second was when a man was robbing a store and when he had the cash just shot the clerk , execution style.  His lawyer got a plea bargain deal and the guy was sentenced to under 5 years.

Difference was that the father was an honorable man and did not shirk responsibility for what he did or why he did it.

The thief was a low life psychopath with no regard for human life whose lawyer knew  how to take advantage of the system.


Think about the whole 5th Amendment.  It is only meaningful if the accused will be honorable and tell the truth under oath.  Now it seems more useful as a way to keep lying, self serving criminals from feeding the jury faslehoods.
 

[tombogan03884]

According to information found at http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/uscongress/a/congresspay.htm :

Do you think ol' Ben had the right idea?  Would we have better Representatives and Senators if they worked solely from a sense of duty and service to the Nation?  Would unpaid politicians be more likely to exhibit the honor, integrity, and character that we so desperately need in Washington?

No. The NH Legislature is only paid about $100 a year, supposed to be for travel expenses, but we still have the egoists, and the ones who find a way to cash in on the position.
In Franklin's time being sent to Philadelphia, or Washington was a true sacrifice, first both were pest holes swept annually by yellow fever, until the early 1900's diplomats considered  Washington a hardship post due to the malaria common to the Chesapeake Bay area in general, and Foggy Bottom in particular. (That's why Congress still takes off all of August, it was the height of the "Fever Season" )
But more importantly, going to Washington meant that your own affairs went on hold till the session was over, there were no 3 day week ends home . No one to get your crops in ?  To bad, you have other obligations .
The stress is killing your wife ?  Doesn't matter, you still have your duties just like Andrew Jackson.
If we want to get men of character, we have to make it a true sacrifice again .
Maybe we need to replace the election system with a draft system.
Instead of giving the job to the ego maniac who is willing to spend the most and sling the most BS we should take the person statistically best qualified from the whole population , whether he wants to or not.
The incentive to do their best is that if they don't they have to do it over like reincarnation. 

[twyacht]

Our Founders held their "Sacred Honor" exactly that:

Sacred.

Without it, wealth, status, power, reputation, wisdom meant NOTHING.

Certainly a different time in today's world. Honor is no longer found "inside the beltway", except at the Tomb Of The Unknowns.

"When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic."
Benjamin Franklin

[Sponsor]

[tombogan03884]

Our Founders held their "Sacred Honor" exactly that:

Sacred.

Without it, wealth, status, power, reputation, wisdom meant NOTHING.

Certainly a different time in today's world. Honor is no longer found "inside the beltway", except at the Tomb Of The Unknowns.

"When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic."
Benjamin Franklin

Any wonder why DC was one of the first cities to officially outlaw dueling ?

[Solus]

BOHICA simply could not have existed back then.

Any one who would have elicited that comment would have been tarred and feathered, run out of town on a rail or shot...or all three.

[tombogan03884]

The man who accepted the commission to collect the Stamp tax in NYC was dragged from his house, all his possessions were carried out and piled in the street, the house was disassembled and placed on the pile, his carriage, of which he was quite proud, was placed on top of the pile.
After the pile was lit he was tarred, feathered, and ridden around town on a rail .
Then he was released and allowed to warm himself by the fire while the mob went home.

[crusader rabbit]

I'm currently rereading "Gods and Generals", Jeff Shaara's account of the years before the battle of Gettysburg portrayed in his fathers book "Killer Angels".
Shaara describes an incident where  former US Army Lt Col Robert E. Lee has refused command of the Federal Army, resigned his commission, and is on his way to accept command of the Va State forces.
As he walks to the Governors office he pauses to contemplate a statue of George Washington and asks himself, "What changed ?
Why didn't it work ?"
He goes on to consider the Great men, Adams, Madison, Washington, Jefferson .
Reading that it dawned on me exactly what went wrong .
The Constitution was written for men of honor , men of integrity, reason, and character.
The flaw was that we got everything but, instead of men of integrity, reason, and character, we got politicians and nothing written by the first sort can ever protect against the second sort.

I'd like to say, keen eye for the obvious, Tom.  But so many of our fellows are blind to the most obvious these days. 

Honor is a lost concept.  Integrity?  What is that?  Reason?  Only the circuitous type to reinforce our misunderstandings.  And character?  A ridiculous conceit in the modern man.

Our nation is foundering, Tom.  And it is all the result of of politicians.

I continue to weep for my formerly great country.

Crusader

[santahog]

Tom, I think your "Draft System" was the way it was, after a fashion, in the early days.. My understanding was that in the early days, ones name had to be submitted by another. You could accept or decline, but you didn't submit your own name for consideration..

Gotta go to the airport now..
Merry Christmas!!