Pistol Caliber War - It's Over

[gordyt]

Awesome video.  Thanks for posting it!

[JdePietro]

First of all, awesome video! I don't want to get too serious but I have actually thinking about this a lot. I just wrote this for another forum I'm a member of. Your thoughts are greatly appreciated as well.

 Let me start off by saying that I am in no way trying to come off sounding like a know it all tactical ninja, that is only beating a dead horse with old mantra. It is neither my intent nor my goal to create a thread for another caliber war. These are simply my latest and always changing thoughts about what I carry, I share them with you for my benefit and to discuss new ideas.


A while ago I watched a video hosted by a Doctor who was discussing the modern treatment of gunshot wounds. In great detail they discussed the tissue damage caused by modern bullet technology but they also hinted at how ineffective pistol calibers really are. After watching this video a few times I started to do some Q&A with some local trama doctors in the Reading area. I have started to feel that after years of hearing "caliber doesn't matter", in reality it does...

Every time we pull the trigger, a control chaos experiment happens. Regardless of brand claims, little variables such as humidity, elevation Barrel length and cut can cause the smallest of changes within the projectile that may or may not have a desirable impact. Spend some time on youtube and you can watch a myriad of interesting videos that test various pistol rounds in great detail and often times in media mimicking the FBI protocols.

TNOutdoors9 hosts an awesome channel on youtube that can provide you with all kinds of great data. After spending time watching his channel and the various tests on .380 it is easy to come to the conclusion that save FMJ, there is not a single bullet design in that caliber that will get to 12 inches of penetration and yet .380 has seen a renaissance of sorts and is a very popular caliber thanks to the new platforms introduced by every manufacturer these days. But... Have we fallen in love with myth? I keep my Kel-Tec loaded with Hornaday Critical Defense which I have been told is the best on the market. Even that fails to reach the desired penetration depths. Now I understand that these informal tests serve only as a model for testing in a controlled environment but if the design on said bullet cannot overcome a media designed to mimic human flesh how can I in confidence rely on the person selling me the product to provide me with unbiased data.

I'm not trying to pick on any one caliber so I'm going to move away from the .380 and discuss what I find important when selecting a self defense firearm.

The conclusion I draw from watching the video mentioned at the beginning of this thread and from talking with local Doctors, is that tissue injury is irrelevant and that penetration is far more significant if your goal is to incapacitate an assailant. To incapacitate you have to do one of two things. Break bones, or sever nerve connections. No amount of expansion or tissue damage can disrupt the ability of a person to continue an attack. With this in mind I find myself asking if 12 inches of depth on Ballistic Gel is even a good yard stick in which to measure the effectiveness of a given load.

I encourage everyone to find some videos of your favorite caliber and load and discuss the findings of their performance, but I find myself drifting into some serious thought about what I carry. To date I never had a problem carrying or recommending a 9mm in any of the modern loads for carry. Now I'll be honest, I'm finding it hard to find a load in 9mm besides the under powered 115gr hollow points that will actually make it to just 12 inches. I also think that carrying a load that pushes past that is actually a really good idea.

I understand that in the context of civilian self defense some thought must be given about selecting a round that may have a greater chance of passing through the intended target and causing collateral damage. However, I think as a whole we put too much emphasis on that chance and less on what a desired result is. Lots of data is out there on very high profile shootings and we need to keep in mind that calibers commonly carried fail to deliver on a regular basis. Is it not safe to think that perhaps our perception of what is and isn't acceptable may be off?

Your thoughts on this subject are greatly appreciated.

[tombogan03884]

What I want is a bullet that will go ALMOST all the way through , ripping, tearing, and smashing as much as possible on it's way.
This minimizes the chance of dangerous over penetration while leaving all major bones structures vulnerable .

[1Buckshot]

500 S&W, Need I say more.

[Dakotaranger]

500 S&W, Need I say more.

Buckshot, where you live I'd carry a .500 too because of the bears.  When I do carry a 9 I don't feel under gunned, but I still prefer a .45 when I'm in cat country riding, it maybe a psychological thing but when help is more than an hour away...

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[kmitch200]

they also hinted at how ineffective pistol calibers really are. After watching this video a few times I started to do some Q&A with some local trama doctors in the Reading area. I have started to feel that after years of hearing "caliber doesn't matter", in reality it does.

I've seen a lot of autopsies and worked on a lot of folks that had extra holes in them. In handguns I don't think caliber really matters much at all in commonly carried sizes/designs. Handguns are low velocity and underpowered when looked at in the context of long guns. They are a compromise in convenience, otherwise you'd be carrying a rifle.  Yes, the 4XX, 5XX, XXX, have power....and nobody carries one on a daily basis because they are huge and heavy. Might as well carry a carbine.

With this in mind I find myself asking if 12 inches of depth on Ballistic Gel is even a good yard stick in which to measure the effectiveness of a given load.

Jello shooting is only good as a comparative media. This bullet does this and that one does that.
Jello doesn't bones, varying density of muscle and doesn't have 'meaness' - a will to survive 'no matter what' that humans can possess.

I understand that in the context of civilian self defense some thought must be given about selecting a round that may have a greater chance of passing through the intended target and causing collateral damage.
However, I think as a whole we put too much emphasis on that chance and less on what a desired result is.

I think we put too much emphasis on the odd chance that we might have to shoot someone at all. If you don't deal/buy drugs, aren't black or latino and don't live around white trash methheads, the odds are your carry gun will only clear leather to be cleaned or at the range. I carry a gun on a daily basis, how much I worry about having to use it doesn't take up 10 minutes in a month.
Am I proficient with it? HELL YES. Do I worry if I have this months perfect load in it?  NO.