POV: The Handgun Cartridge Size Debate.....again

[PegLeg45]

From Bryce Towsley:

http://brycetowsley.com/tactical/this-again


I really like the closing statements. 

FTA:

That said, carry what you want; I don’t care. But please stop believing everything you read on the internet about handguns. Make a choice, but make an informed choice.

One last thought. There are always those who will turn the argument away from the ballistics and say, “let’s forget the ballistic charts and see what the morgue says about which cartridge is effective.”

OK, fair enough. The agency that shoots the most people with a 9mm is the U.S. Army, so they surely have the best database “from the morgue.” They just decided the 9mm is inadequate and are now searching for a larger, more powerful pistol cartridge.

[tombogan03884]

I had to post my usual dash of real world

"All this is true enough, but the 25 acp in your pocket a far more effective cartridge than the .44 mag you left home because it was to heavy to carry."

[Solus]

Thing about the Army is that they are restricted to the use of ball rounds.

No expansion with ball, so the bigger it starts out, well the bigger it stays, so anything larger than a 9mm will make a bigger hole.

With expanding ammo, it is a different ballgame.

Back in the 80s, before they started designing bullets to meet the FBI requirements resulting from the 1986 Miami shootout, there were some numbers around about the efficiency of different calibers stopping power.

I don't recall the exact numbers, but it is not to critical here.

The .45 ACP came in near 90%...maybe a bit higher or lower...I seem to remember numbers of 87 or 92.

The 38 Special was near 80...I remember 77, but it is somewhere around there.

The 9mm was several points below the 38 Special.

Those were the "common" sd rounds in use and the choice of 45ACP was pretty obvious, to me at least.

Then they started work on bullet design with the 40 S&W and Black Talon being among the first in the early 90s..

This resulted in significant improvements in ALL calibers using these rounds.  However, because the room for improvement for the 45ACP was small, it might have gained a % point or two but the 40 S&W and 9mm moved into the upper 80s..near were the 45ACP lives.

Put +Ps and all that in the mix and it's all a new ballgame.

However 3 concepts still prevail. 

1.  The round must penetrate reliably to be consistently effective.  12 inches in ballistic gelatin is deemed the minimum for reliable stopping power

2.  Over penetration is a No-No.  For two reasons.  A.  if the round leaves the target, the target does not receive all the energy dump available for the round, and, more importantly, innocents beyond the target are endangered by the round.  18 inches is deemed the maximum penetration in ballistic gelatin to limit over penetration.

3.  Expand as much as possible while staying within parameters 1 and 2 above.

While I know nothing is an absolute predictor of performance, this is at least a relative measuring stick. 

Also, I know that the lessened energy dump of an over penetrating round might not be a concern.  A .32ACP might penetrate to the required 12 inches and dump all it's energy in the target while a .50BMG will likely go a bit beyond the 18 inches of gelatin but will dump more energy and do more damage than about anything else heading down range.

Next, the effectiveness of high speed in pistol rounds is not an established fact, well at least to some.  Some say rifle velocities need to be reached before hydrostatic shock becomes a factor.  Others point to the difference in the 38 Special and the .357 Magnum saying the difference in effectiveness is due to hydrostatic shock.

Lastly, the increase noise, muzzle flash and recoil of higher powered pistol loads might cause decreased shooter effectiveness under the stress of a self defense situation, particularly in low light. 

So there you have it....

Oh..remember, like Tom B says, the best gun/caliber combo for you is the one you will always be willing to carry.

[tombogan03884]

The history of firearms shows that as bullet velocity increases a certain amount of caliber reduction will still achieve the same effect.
The .45 caliber (or so) Pennsylvania Long rifle was more effective than the .75 caliber Brown Bess.
(We are talking about SHOOTING here, there were other factors that made the Brown Bess a better "military tool", such as the ability to use a bayonet. )
With the introduction of pointed bullets, and smokeless powder armys reduced their rifle calibers from the 10 -11 MM range to the 27 - 32 caliber range with the same effectiveness.
There seems to be a point around .25 - .27 caliber where loss of bullet weight offsets the gains from velocity.
But in the case of pistol ammunition it would appear that there are still gains to be made by increased velocity and improved bullet design.

[Magoo541]

All pistols suck.  So why not just carry what you are comfortable with depending your, and your loved ones, life on?  Live and let live.

BTW the same technology that makes a .380 good, a 9mm better, makes the 45 the BEST! 

[Sponsor]

[tombogan03884]

Size, and weight of the launcher have a drastic effect on the effectiveness of the projectile.
If you leave you .500 S&W home because it's to heavy then the bullets are less effective than the .22 you drop in your pocket from habit.
There is no such thing as "best".
If there were then that would be the only model on the market.
There is only "best" for the persons specific situation .

[Solus]

All pistols suck.  So why not just carry what you are comfortable with depending your, and your loved ones, life on?  Live and let live.

BTW the same technology that makes a .380 good, a 9mm better, makes the 45 the BEST! 

This is true if BEST means the highest probability of a quick fight stopper...quick being in the realm of handguns.

But as noted before, the gap in the percentage of effectiveness is shrinking with each advance in bullet/cartridge design.

All of this leads to shot placement being even more of a determining factor in "stopping power"  than it has always been, but NOT as critical a factor as it was.

For example:   A .32ACP has in the past been a poor choice because of a lack of penetration and a small starting diameter, so shot placement was extremely critical ... center torso shots without hitting the ribcage or breast bone, center throat shots, head shots to the eye/nose area....

However with the latest ammo developments, the penetration and expansion of the .32 ACP bring it into a much more acceptable range...stopping shots through ribcage, breast bone and skull are much more likely to occur.

So now the advice is:  Become proficient with the most effective pistol caliber you are will carry every day, all day.

NOTE:  Most Effective Pistol Caliber, for me will be one that does well with the FBI criteria.  This could be big and slow or light and fast.

Cor-Bon rounds have exemplary performance with light, fast, solid copper rounds. Penetration, weight retention and expansion are tops.

Being an "old school" shooter, I "grew up" in favor of the .45ACP.  Also being a Glock "fan boy" that leads to the Glock 21.  However, I find carrying a 21 all day to be unworkable, so instead I carry a G23,  (.40 S&W for uninformed cretins  ), all day.

[TAB]

What ever works for you. 

[JC5123]

What ever works for you.

^^^^^^^^^^^This^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

And the earth shook, and the sky darkened, as, I agreed whole heartedly with Tab. 

[Solus]

What ever works for you.

Well, that is the final word for every discussion