The Republican Debate ?

[Rastus]

What Rastus and Bill are both missing is the effect on employment. .<snip>

That's what I meant in the post, could have been a little clearer I guess...
"<snip>
So now, when I hire someone (remember that economy thing) their salary and benefits come into play.  A new employee needs to generate over $25,000 a year in profit just to cover his health, dental and life insurance costs.   Gee, what happened to the good jobs in the US?
<snip>

[billt]

There will still be jobs...... Just without good, or any health care.

[tombogan03884]

Bill, you don't get it.
Yeah, there will be jobs, for barter because the money is not worth shit.
No money for fuel means nothing moves.
When the Vandals cut the water supply to Rome, which is ON a river, the population dropped from millions to thousands. What do you think will happen to Phoenix, or Dallas ?
Oh, that all runs on electricity, what do you think will be the fist service to collapse ?
You are f#cked beyond imagining.

[billt]

Bill, you don't get it.
Yeah, there will be jobs, for barter because the money is not worth shit.

I'm talking about now. Some companies have reduced hiring, but NOT because of health insurance costs. They are simply reducing those costs to the bottom line, by either eliminating health plans in favor of useless, but much cheaper, "health savings accounts", or they are substantially increasing employee deductions in order to maintain even less coverage. Or else all of the above. Health care is pricing itself out of the employee benefits package nationwide.

Today, you can still find a job if you have a trade or skill that is in demand. Many still are. College "graduates" are a dime a dozen. Too many for too few openings. People TODAY are either receiving fewer health benefits from their jobs, or they are losing them all together. This was coming with or without Obama Care. It will continue to get worse.

 Now, I agree with you that down the road, (when is anyone's guess), we'll have a financial collapse. The only way out would be instituting a massive cut in government, along with government programs and spending, the like of which people have never seen.

That won't happen because we have too many have nots who don't give a $h!t. They will vote to keep the freebies coming until we all crash and burn. They've got nothing to lose. The only bet you have now is when will that point be? 5 years down the road? 10?, or 20+? No one really knows. This country today is like a family with too much credit card debt, that refuses to stop spending money they don't have on crap they don't need. Sooner or later they'll be forced to because there will be nothing left for even the most basic of items. When that happens, it's going to get very ugly.

[Rastus]

I'm talking about now. Some companies have reduced hiring, but NOT because of health insurance costs.
<snip>

Did someone not read my previous posts?  I hire...I fire.  Health insurance costs are up $10,000+ a year from what we paid 2 years ago. 

Yes, I have stopped hiring directly because of health insurance costs.  80% of the businesses I know have reduced or stopped hiring because of the jump in health insurance costs because of Obamacare.  That's construction, oil business, lawn service, etc.

And the 100% of the businesses I know, including the one I work for, have reduced new employee pay and employee raises as a consequence of Obamacare. 

I thought I was clear in my post...I guess not.

This health insurance thing has been a progressive communist/socialist initiative for a long time.  The Dems in congress worked to phase out all kinds of personal income tax deductions in the 80's.  Of course, it is The Government's money, right? 

Then in the 90's we had the Clinton Communist medical plan.  It was more transparently a bandaid plan...I read the dang thing and neither of my son's asthma treatments would have been covered long term....I know what everyone heard...I read the book and stand behind my statement.

So the RINO's through Bush saddled us with the prescription drugs and now we have Obamacare dragging down the entire US economy. 

The big thing that has prevented the US economy from collapsing under Obama (and it's not over yet) is the technology we employ on what were formerly known as "source rocks" in the oil industry where we are now importing 5 million barrels a day less oil than if we had not developed the technology.  And, do you not think we'd be paying $100+/bbl with 5 million less barrels on the world market so the sorry ass recovery that has 23 % unemployment using historical standards (22% for the Depression) is propped up by 500 million dollars a day staying in the US...about 185 billion a year staying inside our borders?

And how will there be jobs without Obamacare?  Someone enlighten me how I can escape the law?  Remember the IRS personnel increase...try as a business owner not supplying Obamacare and see where that gets you...like not paying you taxes.  The IRS carries guns now. 

I do not understand your statement about jobs without health care but I do stand by your statement stating jobs without good healthcare because that is now and it is called Obamacare supplied by government decree and it is terrible in comparison to what people could by at 1/2 price 2 years ago.   

How many insurance company meetings have you had in the last 3 years like I have to discuss what insurance plans are available and what the cost is?  You have 3 to 5 plans you can ( 4 & 5 are generally just adders for eye care and dental) buy from an insurance company and that's it...you don't get to pick and choose your coverage the insurance company offerings are fixed by the insurance company and that is that.  I have been in several meetings with various insurance provides to determine what we could afford to offer at a higher price with less benefit and you choose what is offered you don't dictate what is covered. 

The psychologists want to get paid so they have Congress pass laws or regulators write regulations that require (this was in the 90's) that you must supply whacko care.  Then it was assistance for employees who's feelings are topsy tervy when they are away from home.  Together that jumped the price about $150 a month prior to 2000. 

I can go on and on.  There have been a number of Congressional or government bureaucrat supported initiatives that have caused health care costs to go up because of mandates.  All of which have helped to lead us to where we are today.  I mean dang, I go to great trouble to screen out druggies and alcoholics...but the insurance we've bought for the last 20 years has, by US Government decree, required us to provide some assistance for people who wash out...and I can't fire them if they crawl in to HR and fess up before I find out.

Anyone who thinks the health insurance you buy now is better than what you could buy 3 years ago at 1/2 the price is drinking Communist Kool-Aide.  Ditto if you think the government has improved things the last 30 years.

PS  I forgot, Bill Clinton by presidential order put a ceiling on the number of medical school students there could be in the 90's if a school accepted federal crack...errr, $$$$$.  It may have been adjusted since then, but think about who wanted that and why. 

[Sponsor]

[MikeBjerum]

Follow what Rastus is saying.  It is the new American employment economy.

When I was fresh out of vo-tech and both gaining experience and taking management classes for the future, I was taught that for easy math consider that an employee will cost a business twice their actual dollar pay - Employer match on SS, liability and workman's comp insurance, vacation and sick leave, etc.  Today, even if minimum wage rises to $15.00 hour, many employers will face doubling that wage by just covering mandated insurance.  I see a time in our near future, or even today, that actual cost of an employee will be three or more times the actual stated hourly rate or salary.

Get ready for the politicians who buy their seats with campaign promises of wealth for all trying to deal with their unintended consequences, and more and more jobs being classified as contract labor.  Poultry farmers in our area started doing this decades ago.  Rather than deal with hiring twenty people to load chickens or turkeys all night (tens of thousands of birds in a 12 to 18 hour period) they contract with a person for a set number of dollars to complete the job, and they deal with the casual labor to fill the contract.  Just down the road from us I watch it with an organic farmer who contracts with a person for a set dollar amount per acre to clean his organic/chemical fields of corn and soybeans.  This person collects the money and provides casual labor to crawl through the field pulling weeds.

You may think contract labor will never infiltrate our daily lives, but consider compensation for sales people, many service specialists, hairdressers and manicurists, and carpenters.