Author Topic: Bolt gun for defense  (Read 8310 times)

Solus

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Re: Bolt gun for defense
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2017, 03:48:58 PM »
Have to agree with mkm.

You are looking to prepare for "combat", not a survival outing.

I don't imagine any army equips combat troops with anything but an auto/semi-auto, save special function personnel
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Sean LeMasters

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Re: Bolt gun for defense
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2017, 04:38:07 PM »
http://www.mossberg.com/category/series/mvp-series/mvp-patrol/   
take your pick, box fed, .308 or 5.56, common mag compatibility.   I've only handled a couple of Mossberg bolt guns and thought they were a bit bulky but for your purpose they might fit.

I do like the Mossberg guns, they are making a really good bolt gun right now. And I did consider the 5.56 version but I have never heard anything about the durability of their flipper system to feed from an AR. It seems like it would be a breaking point and I would hate to have it go down when its needed. But it may work perfectly, I've never heard. And I think I heard somewhere that they wont accept P-Mags, but I may be mistaken.

But if the system works it would be a good option.

alfsauve

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Re: Bolt gun for defense
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2017, 07:36:00 PM »
What exactly defines the "Scout" concept?

Short barrel?
Stout cartridge?
Forward mounted scope?

The later seems to be the only thing new, or at least different.  The others have been around for some time.   I'm just not into the rather awkward, in my view, scope mounting.   MY SCOUT RIFLE, is a .308 carbine length, bolt action, but with a traditional scope nearer the COG.

Will work for ammo
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MikeBjerum

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Re: Bolt gun for defense
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2017, 08:18:43 PM »
Quote
The scout rifle is a class of general-purpose rifles defined and promoted by Jeff Cooper in the early 1980s.

These are typically bolt-action carbines chambered for .308 Winchester (or 7.62×51mm), less than 1 meter (40 inches) in length, and less than 3 kilograms (6.6 pounds) in weight, with iron and optical sights and fitted with practical slings (such as Ching slings) for shooting and carrying, and capable of hitting man-sized targets out to 450 meters without scopes. Typically they employ forward-mounted low-power long eye relief scopes or sights to afford easy access to the top of the rifle action for rapid reloading. Although the Steyr Scout is the only rifle Jeff Cooper has been personally involved with, Ruger, Savage, and several other gun makers now manufacture scout rifles that roughly match Cooper's specifications.

Cooper realized that rifles in the late 20th century differed little from those used by celebrated scouts such as Maj. Frederick Russell Burnham one hundred years before, and that advances in metallurgy, optics, and plastics could make the rifle a handy, light instrument "that will do a great many things equally well...". Cooper’s scout-rifle concept was largely influenced by the exploits of the scout Burnham in the Western United States and Africa and as such it is best suited to a man operating either alone or in a two or three man team
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Sean LeMasters

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Re: Bolt gun for defense
« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2017, 08:27:37 PM »
I had a scout scope on a Marlin lever gun once and it worked well enough for me, but the options are so limited as to what is offered in a scout scope right now. And I would say that the forward scope mount isn't important if you factor in good quality detachable mags (with spares)
I'm leaning towards a low power (1x-4ish range) With as simple of a reticle as possible mounted over the reciever, QD mounts, and iron backup sights.

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Re: Bolt gun for defense
« Reply #15 on: Today at 05:15:47 PM »

les snyder

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Re: Bolt gun for defense
« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2017, 10:47:57 PM »
after reading about Col Coopers Scout rifle concept, I made an attempt in the early 80s with a Mini14 and a Ranch Products mount on the gas block with a 2 1/2 power extended eye relief pistol scope... worked well at the time...there has been a tremendous improvement in the field of low power good eye relief scopes since then... unless you are going to use the power afforded a bolt action's strength I don't see the need for a bolt gun in the .25 caliber class... as others have commented, you can put together a lightweight AR15 platform for just over $400... YMMV

alfsauve

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Re: Bolt gun for defense
« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2017, 04:56:10 AM »
That's my point Mike.     Other than the forward mounted scope, what really defines a scout rifle?    What's really different from any other bolt action?

I think it's these key points.

Bolt Action
Hard hitting caliber (.308 min)
Short and light (~10#)
Expanded magazine capacity.  (more than 5)

But what I see, almost universally, is the forward mounted scope as the defining feature.  I understand Cooper liked LER for the speed of a quick shot.  I'm not convinced that should be "THE" feature.

But what I see is people forward mounting a scope on all sorts of platforms and saying, "Scout Rifle."  I don't that qualifies.   Would Cooper?





Will work for ammo
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PegLeg45

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Re: Bolt gun for defense
« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2017, 08:39:04 AM »
Disclaimer:  I know what a scout rifle is, but I haven't studied them.

For the purposes you're describing, I would suggest building or buying an ultralight AR.  Throw in 2 or 3 magazines and you should have an approximately 10lbs or less package including 90 rounds of ammo.

Here's my reasoning. You're planning for an urban environment. That's the one place that the military doesn't really complain about 5.56. You're probably going to be engaging at relatively close distances, sub 100 yds. The likelihood of bigger crowds or at least multiple targets at close range is greater in an urban environment. A couple of quick shots and move. (How fast can you work a bolt?)

If you were planning for a rural or maybe even suburban environment, I would be more open to a bolt gun. In that case, you may be at a greater distance, you probably have more cover, and there are likely less large groups.  In that environment, take the one precise shot and move.

Under most cases, I don't see a reason to engage a target at several hundred yards. If you see the threat that far out, do your best to avoid it. You mentioned not wanting to get pended down. If they aren't engaging you at several hundred yards, avoid. If they are, you may be penned already.

With that said, if you like and want a bolt gun, get one and train. Just my thoughts. I'm no expert nor claim to be.

+1

This would be my take as well, and is the very reason I built an AR pistol, as a light, get home in a bad situation truck-carry-gun up close and personal. I keep regular AR carbine for longer ranges and precision work.

Not bashing a bolt gun, their number one advantage is reliability, but there is a weakness or two. The primary weakness is round capacity, unless you buy one of the few (Mossberg) that will take AR style magazines.
Then follows rapid fire capability in a sticky situation.

I love bolt guns....but in today's world, with all the advances in ARs, anything you can do with a bolt action rifle you can do with an AR....and do it faster. And with multi-caliber choices, you are no longer relegated to just 5.56.

I am by no means trying to tell you not to buy a bolt gun if that is what you want....it's your money.  ;D
JMHO, FWIW.
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Rastus

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Re: Bolt gun for defense
« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2017, 05:42:58 PM »
So, Sean, what direction did you decide on?
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les snyder

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Re: Bolt gun for defense
« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2017, 10:21:13 PM »
I echo the idea of a lightweight AR platform...if you want a 200m firearm, a full float .600" mid length gas pencil barrel will give you probably 3moa with 69grain SMK.... medium contour double that distance, and halves the moa.......add a folding stock adapter like a LAW unit, and you significantly reduce the length of a 16" and further with a pinned and welded 14.5" barrel....  and in defense of the "Christmas tree sight"- if you have not really used something like a 4x32 ACOG it is hard to appreciate its versatility... the lighted chevron of a TA31F works like a dot up close, but provides a precise aiming point at 100 and 200m... from 300 (the 300 line is the bottom width of the chevron's legs) on out the horizontal stadia lines subtend the width of a man's shoulders (19") at the indicated distance, allowing you to accurately range the target... just bracket the shoulders and shoot... the stadia lines subtend realistically 10" of windage on either side of the target at that distance and with practice, allows for precision windage hold off

a carbon fiber filled polymer upper and lower, coupled with a pencil barrel should make a 6# unloaded rifle with a significant edge in fire power at "close interpersonal confrontation" distances

my 7" 5.56 pistol with a LAW folding adapter shoots around 2moa at 100yd with 69 Sierra Match King H322 handloads using a 6moa reflex sight

 

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