Author Topic: 45 vs9mm  (Read 4161 times)

tombogan03884

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45 vs9mm
« on: July 10, 2017, 06:22:24 AM »
It seems to me that the debate on 9mm versus .45 ACP was settled around 1900 when the Army rejected it's 38's in favor of .45 because the 38's weren't stopping 90 pound Filipino's .
It was reinforced when cops shit canned their 38's in favor of .357's
Look at Europe, England and Germany had had colonies populated by savages, similar to our Western indians, England went with .455, We went with45 Colt, the Germans went with the Riech's revolver in 11 mm (S&W 44 Russian clone) the countries with out primitive colonies settled on smaller weaker calibers, generally .32 ACP. The most powerful cartridge developed in Europe was the 9mm, but it was developed to shoot other Europeans. The principals behind black powder elephant guns still applies to pistols, you're limited in the velocity you can generate so if you want more impact you need to go with a heavier larger bullet.
This of course applies to "fighting" pistols, for just in case CCW the .22 short in your pocket will always be a more effective man stopper than the 44 magnum you left home because it's to heavy to carry.

Solus

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Re: 45 vs9mm
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2017, 10:45:24 AM »
I remember back when the FBI requirement lead to the development of the .40S&W. 

At that time "one shot stop" percentages where something like  .45ACP  92%, 38Spc 78% and 9mm 72%...or in those ballparks.

The FBI requirement cause much work on bullet design to better meet those specs.    Black Talon was perhaps the first round to come out of that process.

What has happened is that each of those (and others I don't have numbers for) have been improved.  Since the 45ACP has little room to improve, it has, perhaps, moved to, say 95%, while 38Spc has moved to, say, 87% and 9mm to 85%.  I do not know the exact current numbers, but this demonstrates what is happening.

While they still do not equal the 45ACP, they have improved more significantly than the 45ACP has.

They also are better at meeting the FBI requirements, which, if not a perfect requirement, is still relevant and use full for comparison.   

If they meet the FBI requirements, and a limit on penetration is included, they are worthy of checking out.

About the .44 Mag...for self defense it has a drawback or two... most folks can probably do a triple-tap with a .45 ACP quicker than a double-tap with a .44Mag.    Your neighbor has less chance of becoming collateral damage with the .45 ACP.  I expect low light blinding to be less of a problem with the .45 ACP than the .44Mag but I've  never fired a .44Mag in the dark.
 
Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!"
—Patrick Henry

"Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
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tombogan03884

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Re: 45 vs9mm
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2017, 12:50:25 PM »
Solus, the only fly in that ointment is that it didn't lead to the 40 S&W.
It lead to the 10 mm, but the women, and other light weights in the FBI  couldn't handle it so they had to download it to the .40 .

MikeBjerum

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Re: 45 vs9mm
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2017, 12:53:54 PM »
The next step in this has been that, due to lack of training and practice, LE is not able to handle the heavier recoil, thus the dumbing down of calibers.

Now, here is something to think about:  Energy delivered on target.

I am using loads that match common on my shelf, and magazine capacity matching what I have (had in case of 10mm)

Caliber        Energy          Rounds          Energy on target
9mm          132,840            16               2,125,440
.40S&W      102,600            10               1,026,000
10mm        177,840              8               1,422,720
.45acp       172,270              8                1,378,160

Knowing that sometimes you need the knock out punch more than the continual jabs to get the job done, I'll take a 10mm or .45acp over a 9mm, and will dismiss the .40S&W.
If I appear taller than other men it is because I am standing on the shoulders of others.

Solus

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Re: 45 vs9mm
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2017, 01:17:15 PM »
Solus, the only fly in that ointment is that it didn't lead to the 40 S&W.
It lead to the 10 mm, but the women, and other light weights in the FBI  couldn't handle it so they had to download it to the .40 .

Well, sort of. 

The 10mm was developed in 1983 which was 3 years before the FBI shoot out that lead to the spec so the 10mm WAS NOT developed to meet that spec

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10mm_Auto

Although it was selected for service by the Federal Bureau of Investigation in 1989 from the aftermath of the 1986 FBI Miami shootout, the cartridge was later decommissioned (except by the Hostage Rescue Team and Special Weapons and Tactics Teams) after their Firearms Training Unit eventually concluded that its recoil was excessive in terms of training for average agents' and police officers' competency of use and qualification,[12] and that the pistols chambered for the cartridge were too large for some small-handed individuals.

These issues led to the creation and following replacement to a shorter version of the 10mm that exists today as the .40 S&W, and while the 10mm never attained the mainstream success of this compact variant, there is still an enthusiastic group of supporters and users.[13]


 

The FBI did what was wise and selected a cartridge that was most effective for it's officers.
Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!"
—Patrick Henry

"Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
— Daniel Webster

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Re: 45 vs9mm
« Reply #5 on: Today at 09:07:21 AM »

Solus

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Re: 45 vs9mm
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2017, 01:28:00 PM »
The next step in this has been that, due to lack of training and practice, LE is not able to handle the heavier recoil, thus the dumbing down of calibers.

Now, here is something to think about:  Energy delivered on target.

I am using loads that match common on my shelf, and magazine capacity matching what I have (had in case of 10mm)

Caliber        Energy          Rounds          Energy on target
9mm          132,840            16               2,125,440
.40S&W      102,600            10               1,026,000
10mm        177,840              8               1,422,720
.45acp       172,270              8                1,378,160

Knowing that sometimes you need the knock out punch more than the continual jabs to get the job done, I'll take a 10mm or .45acp over a 9mm, and will dismiss the .40S&W.

Each of us should select and carry the most effective gun/ammo combination we can handle in our situation.

The FBI needs to select the combo that is most effective for the majority of it's officers

I do not know how often the 10mm will overpenetrate, but any energy remaining after exit is not delivered to the target.

Also, if a shooter can deliver 2 hits in the time is takes to deliver 1 in a heavier load, they do more damage.  Further, I don't know if there is any study that shows you are more likely to need to deliver a single punch to one target over delivering multiple hits to multiple targets...

Eight rounds might not go far enough in a multiple attacker encounter before needing a reload.
Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!"
—Patrick Henry

"Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
— Daniel Webster

tombogan03884

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Re: 45 vs9mm
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2017, 02:00:54 PM »
The 8 round limit was only in the guns Mike personally has owned.
Both Glock, and EAA market high capacity 45 and 10 mm pistols, not to mention Para.
Hell, even Rock Island Armory has a double stack 45 , although I don't know if their 10 mm is available that way.
The FBI  have always been pussies about recoil, back when they were first being allowed guns, the real shooters like Charles Winstead wanted them to use 45's and practice movement, The college boys went with 38's and square range training.

alfsauve

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Re: 45 vs9mm
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2017, 04:38:51 PM »
The FBI  have always been pussies about recoil, back when they were first being allowed guns,

OF course it would help if they didn't leave them in the car with the motor running.

Or, sadly, in the case of Miami, lay them on the passenger seat while driving to the incident.
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tombogan03884

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Re: 45 vs9mm
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2017, 06:04:06 AM »
OF course it would help if they didn't leave them in the car with the motor running.

Or, sadly, in the case of Miami, lay them on the passenger seat while driving to the incident.
.

That brings up the issue of the blind guy leaving forgetting his glasses.
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MikeBjerum

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Re: 45 vs9mm
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2017, 09:47:17 AM »
Each of us should select and carry the most effective gun/ammo combination we can handle in our situation.

The FBI needs to select the combo that is most effective for the majority of it's officers

I do not know how often the 10mm will overpenetrate, but any energy remaining after exit is not delivered to the target.

Also, if a shooter can deliver 2 hits in the time is takes to deliver 1 in a heavier load, they do more damage.  Further, I don't know if there is any study that shows you are more likely to need to deliver a single punch to one target over delivering multiple hits to multiple targets...

Eight rounds might not go far enough in a multiple attacker encounter before needing a reload.

Handgun over penetration is a bullet choice issue.

Multiple heavy hits are for the drugged up attacker that dies but still keeps coming - Meth!

Shots on target while dealing with recoil is training practice, and physical ability.
If I appear taller than other men it is because I am standing on the shoulders of others.

 

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