Author Topic: printable ATF letter on vertical fore grips  (Read 4821 times)

les snyder

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printable ATF letter on vertical fore grips
« on: October 25, 2018, 08:04:15 AM »
if anyone can point me in the right direction on a printable copy of the current ATF ruling on vertical fore grips, I would be appreciative... thanks

PegLeg45

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Re: printable ATF letter on vertical fore grips
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2018, 12:52:12 PM »
Les,
I found two. One is the 2006 ATF letter in PDF format from their website. The second appears as an "official" response to a legal inquiry from 2011. I have linked them both below. If I find anything else more current I'll post it.


https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/open-letter/all-ffls-may2006-open-letter-adding-vertical-fore-grip-handgun/download

https://johnpierceesq.com/can-you-add-a-vertical-fore-grip-to-an-ar-pistol/

"I expect perdition, I always have. I keep this building at my back, and several guns handy, in case perdition arrives in a form that's susceptible to bullets. I expect it will come in the disease form, though. I'm susceptible to diseases, and you can't shoot a damned disease." ~ Judge Roy Bean, Streets of Laredo

For the Patriots of this country, the Constitution is second only to the Bible for most. For those who love this country, but do not share my personal beliefs, it is their Bible. To them nothing comes before the Constitution of these United States of America. For this we are all labeled potential terrorists. ~ Dean Garrison

"When it comes to the enemy, just because they ain't pullin' a trigger, doesn't mean they ain't totin' ammo for those that are."~PegLeg

Big Frank

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Re: printable ATF letter on vertical fore grips
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2018, 06:08:16 PM »
I wanted to make an HK SP89 into a semi-auto MP5K by adding a VFG, but since it was illegal to do that I never bought an SP89. I think it's stupid to say that a pistol is no longer a pistol because it has a VFG. If you could shoot it one-handed before, then you still could. I saw a Kel-Tec PLR-16 in a gun store during the Clinton "assault weapons" ban with a VFG on it. I said something to the salesman like, you know that with the vertical fore grip on it, it's an illegal AOW now don't you? The reply was that it's still a pistol and it's okay, or something like that. I think I told them they better take it off before they sell it. I'd hate to see anyone else go to prison for something the gun store did.
""It may be laid down as a primary position, and the basis of our system, that every Citizen who enjoys the protection of a free Government, owes not only a proportion of his property, but even his personal services to the defence of it, and consequently that the Citizens of America (with a few legal and official exceptions) from 18 to 50 Years of Age should be borne on the Militia Rolls, provided with uniform Arms, and so far accustomed to the use of them, that the Total strength of the Country might be called forth at a Short Notice on any very interesting Emergency." - George Washington. Letter to Alexander Hamilton, Friday, May 02, 1783

THE RIGHT TO BUY WEAPONS IS THE RIGHT TO BE FREE - A. E. van Vogt, The Weapon Shops of Isher

les snyder

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Re: printable ATF letter on vertical fore grips
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2018, 10:32:05 PM »
Pegleg... thank you ...I am aware of both of those... I have seen a partial letter that states that the government does not define vertical, but IIRC it implies the common definition of vertical as being at right angles to the barrel... and consequential to it implies that a grip with any form of non perpendicular relationship is therefore not a "vertical" fore grip...

specifically this is related to my conversation on the forum with Dirty Bob concerning a Ruger Charger pistol... the factory fore end is tapered, so a simple rail mounted grip that would be vertical on a parallel Picatinny rail would not be vertical on the slanted surface

thank you for your reply... Les

PegLeg45

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Re: printable ATF letter on vertical fore grips
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2018, 08:48:24 AM »
specifically this is related to my conversation on the forum with Dirty Bob concerning a Ruger Charger pistol... the factory fore end is tapered, so a simple rail mounted grip that would be vertical on a parallel Picatinny rail would not be vertical on the slanted surface

thank you for your reply... Les

Based on what I've read from fairly legitimate sources combined with armchair commandos and part-time lawyers, if I had doubts or questions on legality I would send my own inquiry (with photos) directly to the ATF and have them send me a letter of my own confirming their stance.

If they define vertical as extending down at a 90° angle from the bore axis then the example you mention concerning the Charger might fly.

If it won't fly, there are options via either registering and paying either the $200 tax or the $5 tax per the ATF letter above.




"I expect perdition, I always have. I keep this building at my back, and several guns handy, in case perdition arrives in a form that's susceptible to bullets. I expect it will come in the disease form, though. I'm susceptible to diseases, and you can't shoot a damned disease." ~ Judge Roy Bean, Streets of Laredo

For the Patriots of this country, the Constitution is second only to the Bible for most. For those who love this country, but do not share my personal beliefs, it is their Bible. To them nothing comes before the Constitution of these United States of America. For this we are all labeled potential terrorists. ~ Dean Garrison

"When it comes to the enemy, just because they ain't pullin' a trigger, doesn't mean they ain't totin' ammo for those that are."~PegLeg

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Re: printable ATF letter on vertical fore grips
« Reply #5 on: Today at 12:25:00 AM »

les snyder

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Re: printable ATF letter on vertical fore grips
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2018, 10:34:45 AM »
PegLeg... I'll try an e-mail to the Technical Division... my last letter was never answered (unrelated subject).... I'm too cheap to Form 1 another SBR

PegLeg45

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Re: printable ATF letter on vertical fore grips
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2018, 11:47:54 AM »
There was another section of the letter from 2006 that caught my attention:

Quote
A person may also send the handgun to a person licensed to manufacture NFA weapons. The
manufacturer will install the fore grip on the firearm and register the firearm on an ATF Form 2.
The manufacturer can then transfer the firearm back to the individual on an ATF Form 4, which
results in a $5.00 transfer tax. If the manufacturer is out of State, the NFA Branch will need a
clarification letter submitted with the ATF Form 4 so that the NFA Branch Examiner will know
the circumstances of the transfer. Questions can be directed to the NFA Branch or the Firearms
Technology Branch.

I wonder what kind of time frame this would take compared to an SBR or suppressor?

Les, I'm the same on the money thing. The whole reason I built an AR pistol is because I'm too cheap to pay that ridiculous $200 tax fee for an SBR for what amounts to a difference in technical language.
I may cave in and do it for a suppressor in the future, but am still on the fence on whether to apply for the stamp and build one or just buy one (whole other thread).

"I expect perdition, I always have. I keep this building at my back, and several guns handy, in case perdition arrives in a form that's susceptible to bullets. I expect it will come in the disease form, though. I'm susceptible to diseases, and you can't shoot a damned disease." ~ Judge Roy Bean, Streets of Laredo

For the Patriots of this country, the Constitution is second only to the Bible for most. For those who love this country, but do not share my personal beliefs, it is their Bible. To them nothing comes before the Constitution of these United States of America. For this we are all labeled potential terrorists. ~ Dean Garrison

"When it comes to the enemy, just because they ain't pullin' a trigger, doesn't mean they ain't totin' ammo for those that are."~PegLeg

les snyder

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Re: printable ATF letter on vertical fore grips
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2018, 06:34:44 PM »
PegLeg... my SBR is built on a real LMT MK18 upper with the KAC furniture ...in addition to the $200 tax stamp, I paid $200 for the trust and $35 for the engraving... my "pistols" use a KAK 8 1/2" buffer tube and rubber furniture tip, not a blade or brace, so to be not at the whim of the ATF

update on the Charger... it points exceptionally well with just a slight modification of a rifle hold with it extended, I
probably won't bother with pursuing the AFG... the Vortex Spitfire really works well with the pistol extended, much better than I expected... at 25yd, you just throw it up to eye level, and pull the trigger

TAB

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Re: printable ATF letter on vertical fore grips
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2018, 08:01:46 PM »
I found an email to be a horrible way to get ahold of government employees. I found calling them directly speaking to an actual person and then sending off a letter addressed to that person to be very effective.  In person would be better but it's not always easy thing to love to do. I deal with nature municipalities state and federal agencies on a daily basis. Unless you know the person and have their direct email you're wasting your time. It sucks but that's how it is.
I always break all the clay pigeons,  some times its even with lead.

 

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