Author Topic: House plans  (Read 862 times)

ar154me

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Re: House plans
« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2020, 01:10:19 pm »
TAB, I just noticed.
You haven't changed your avatar in YEARS .
That used to be one of the high points of New Years .    ;D

I don't know,,, I kinda like the view he is giving us. ;^)

TAB

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Re: House plans
« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2020, 01:28:31 pm »
TAB, I just noticed.
You haven't changed your avatar in YEARS .
That used to be one of the high points of New Years .    ;D

I kind of started a large construction company and a non profit since you left.   I have been a little bit busy.      Getting ready to hop on a plane in the next hour. 

You would think me not working i would have free time, but no.  I get called in as a consultant  several times a week.
I always break all the clay pigeons,  some times its even with lead.

tombogan03884

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Re: House plans
« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2020, 01:35:05 pm »
Well, you didn't retire so you could vegetate   ;D
I think you were working on the non profit then and just doing residential work so it didn't get crazy.   ;D
Guess that didn't go so well ?    ;D
Better that way than the other.    ;D
But the avatar pictures really haven't been the same since you got married .   ;D
I'm the NRA, and I ain't giving up squat.

TAB

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Re: House plans
« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2020, 04:48:06 pm »
I still did a bunch of residential, but i also started working on dod contracts as well as building lots of commercial  buildings.   I am still on the board for the non profit, but i no longer deal with the day to day stuff.  I eneded up getting  them to buy a building and they are 100% funded by that.  Only support staff is payed.  All of the management  and proessionals are all 100% volunteer.   I told them when i stepped down that the day they change that is the day i will resign from  the board.  Last couple of months have been pretty low for them, but last quater, the 2 shelters were full, they were servicing several dozen people remotely and was averaging 1 hs diploma or college degree a month( the charity helps runaways and victims of sexual abuse in honor of emily folk. At 14 she ran away and was gang raped, she contracted hiv from that attack.  She died a few years back))
I always break all the clay pigeons,  some times its even with lead.

Marshal Halloway

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Re: House plans
« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2020, 09:47:08 pm »
TAB, I just noticed.
You haven't changed your avatar in YEARS .
That used to be one of the high points of New Years .    ;D

Yep! I think this is a Kydex holster she's wearing. Something in leather mights spruce it up a little....   8)

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Re: House plans
« Reply #15 on: Today at 02:42:00 pm »

Big Frank

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Re: House plans
« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2020, 02:37:17 am »
Yep! I think this is a Kydex holster she's wearing. Something in leather mights spruce it up a little....   8)

You like 'em in leather too, huh? :)
""It may be laid down as a primary position, and the basis of our system, that every Citizen who enjoys the protection of a free Government, owes not only a proportion of his property, but even his personal services to the defence of it, and consequently that the Citizens of America (with a few legal and official exceptions) from 18 to 50 Years of Age should be borne on the Militia Rolls, provided with uniform Arms, and so far accustomed to the use of them, that the Total strength of the Country might be called forth at a Short Notice on any very interesting Emergency." - George Washington. Letter to Alexander Hamilton, Friday, May 02, 1783

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TAB

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Re: House plans
« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2020, 08:22:21 pm »

So its mother’s day and I finally have some time to sit down and type this up.

Before we get to the pros and cons of icf vs stick built homes, there are a few assumptions I have about you, the location of the property (say 1-2 hours outside of a decent sized town) and that if extra man power is needed you are hiring pros and "extra cash" rates.  I will only be talking about building the structure of the home, the pitfalls that can occur during construction and ownership of said home.  There are dozens of icf companies out there; I cannot speak for every system so I will talk in generalities.   I am so speaking of traditional stick building per the ubc/ibc guide line... think 2x 16" on center.  Much of what is said her would also apply to a steel stud home, but that is a completely different subject.  It should also be noted that there is 4 other construction methods that are commonly used.  Those are Masonry, manufactured, log, and SIP (structural integrated panel, think ice cream sandwich with the cookie being ply and the ice cream being expanded foam) I will not be talking about the odd ball or super off grid stuff, just stuff that is right out of the code books.  I am also assuming you have basic skills in the use of tools, can read blue prints and have some general construction knowledge.   For construction I am also assuming you are having trusses brought in rather than rafter framing as that can get complicated very quickly even for a professional.  These are not all inclusive, but will cover most things one would encounter.
That said now on to the pros

ICF:

Anyone can do it. The "blocks" weigh very little and they have easy to follow instructions (more on this later)

Great storm resistance (and can be somewhat bullet resistant as well depending on the system, fire you are still tearing it down)

Fast, even some one that has never built a home could easily build an average sized 4 or 6 corner house in a week.    1st one I build it 3 of us to go from slab to framed, roof sheeted, rough electrical and plumbing in 4 days.  This was a 1350 sqft, that I built 6 of that were same (some mirror image) the last one it 2.5 days.  Stick building it would have been that amount of time just to frame and sheet the roof.

Highly insulated (including air and noise)

Rot resistant (structure is not 100% as concreate can have acr aka concreate cancer and some critters love digging into the foam.)


Pros of stick built

Everyone knows what they are, so permit applications are way easier.   Also when it comes to resale you will on average get paid more for a stick built then icf.  So is insurance as once again, everyone knows what a stick built home is.

Easy to modify, both during construction and later on.

hard to screw up, you build the walls 16" on center, worst case is you take a sawzall to the nails and fix it.( when we get to cons of icf you will understand this, one.

Easy to get materials. You are one 2x4 short, you can run to any hardware store and get one.

Easy to run wire and plumbing.

easy to find pros to do tasks you cannot( see wire and plumbing above)  trust me the last thing you want is to hire someone and when you 1st call them have to explain icf.


Cons

icf:

Hard to modify, it’s not just cutting some wood to make a change, it’s getting out a diamond saw and a jack hammer. (See screw ups further down)

Lower resale value.   I honestly don’t know why but some people are afraid of anything slightly different, this generally means lower resale value.  I have seen as much as 20% compared to other methods of construction.

Screw ups hurt!  Not only are the diamonds coming out to modify things, but if you screw up on your attachment points it can mean big bucks.  Same if you forget to add a void in the form to do things like bring water in.  I had a customer a few years back that built one, but used the attachment schedule for wood siding, not stucco lathe.  Well that was not found out until a stucco contractor was there to lath the house.  Super long story short it cost him $28k for me to send 3 guys out for 9 days to drill and install epoxy anchors. 800 at $35 each.  This was only a 1700 sqft home.  Other systems can use wedge anchors, but powder actuated nailer are only really used for things like attaching interior walls and firing strips.  Had another guy forget to install a section of PVC pipe in the wall so that power and water come be brought in... $2400 later and a core drilling contractor put 2  3" holes in his wall. 

Electrical and plumbing are harder to run.  Some systems use firing strips on the inside to run wires and plumbing) others you have to install conduit before you install.   Both are harder to modify later.  Once again the diamonds come out.

Finding pros that are willing to work on them is harder.  Most guys either have no exp, or don't want to mess with them.  The ones that do generally charge more as the work is more time consuming.

Doors and windows cost more.  Due to the ticker walls, you will either have to buy special jambs (read that as bohic) or add jamb extensions.  Which costs more and takes more time. (For me a jamb extension adds at least 20% to the install time)

Complex or using nonstandard dimensions is hard.    all 90 degree corners with standard lengths ( generally some dimension of 12" or 18") is not bad, most companies also have provisions for a "ranch style" home with an angle bend in it.  these are often limited to 30 or 45 degrees or require complex cuts and/or gluing of foam  which is not a hard thing, but it  is easy to screw up and if you have a seam pop during the pore, you are screwed( maybe even tear down screwed)

Limited on where can be built do to access to concreate. Yeah, you could do it with bags or a batch truck; you could also have a threesome with Nancy Pelosi, and Hillary Clinton.  Good luck with that.

Stick built:

You will need at least 1 other person. As lifting walls by yourself (or equipment for that matter) is at best difficult.  So count on 25-50/ hour for help per person.

Can rot/pests

Slower to build than icf

Less storm resistances

Natural product so you will have deal with straightness of walls at some point (think drywall shims)

Does nothing for insulation or air infiltration. (Read that as more time)


I did not talk about cost as for an owner builder the cost can fluctuate dramatically based on your location.  Both in access to labor and materials.  If all things being equal and you have to hire 2 guys for 2 weeks, the cost will be same.  Don’t have to do that stick building will generally be cheaper.

So which would I choose?  Well it depends.  Rastus building a house in the tornado belt, 1st time builder.  I would steer him towards icf.  Take him again and put him in Utah, stick. (Sorry to pick on you) 



For me currently, it all comes down to the floor plan I end up with.  The time and labor saved with icf is a very big deal... but what do I know, I have only built 93 homes.

As always your mileage may vary.

I always break all the clay pigeons,  some times its even with lead.

TAB

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Re: House plans
« Reply #17 on: May 10, 2020, 08:26:34 pm »
TAB, I just noticed.
You haven't changed your avatar in YEARS .
That used to be one of the high points of New Years .    ;D

just for you   ;D
I always break all the clay pigeons,  some times its even with lead.

tombogan03884

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Re: House plans
« Reply #18 on: May 10, 2020, 08:50:11 pm »
Noticed and appreciated  ;D
Thanks   ;D
I'm the NRA, and I ain't giving up squat.

Rastus

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Re: House plans
« Reply #19 on: May 10, 2020, 09:40:00 pm »
<snip>
So which would I choose?  Well it depends.  Rastus building a house in the tornado belt, 1st time builder.  I would steer him towards icf.  Take him again and put him in Utah, stick. (Sorry to pick on you) 
<snip>

Nothing to be sorry for.  I am heavily leaning towards ICF.  Also, my father was a home builder early on and later contracted on petrochemical plants...I've helped build a couple of homes.  I like the ICF....blowouts are killers though.  And just like you said...angles and curves are an issue.  I'm thinking Frank Lloyd Wright style so angles may not be an issue....there's going to be quite a bit of angst with the wife on this one. 

I was actually thinking some concrete walls for the metal building that I'm putting up late summer or early fall.  Have you ever included that in a metal building?  In this area there have been two metal buildings blown down this year with gustnado's.  So...I was wanting to beef up  the building.  The ground for the building foundation is getting stripped level and then built up this week.  It's on a little of a slope and I don't want any differential settling. 
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It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.
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