Author Topic: ATF Declares the Q Honey Badger Pistol an SBR  (Read 1395 times)

Big Frank

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ATF Declares the Q Honey Badger Pistol an SBR
« on: October 09, 2020, 12:02:21 AM »
Firearms Manufacturer Q LLC announced that it was issued a Cease and Desist by the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms. The ATF’s letter notified Q that the Honey Badger pistol is now considered a Short barreled rifle (SBR) and ordered them to immediately cease production of the firearm unless it is registered on an ATF Form 2, declaring that they are manufacturing an NFA weapon.
""It may be laid down as a primary position, and the basis of our system, that every Citizen who enjoys the protection of a free Government, owes not only a proportion of his property, but even his personal services to the defence of it, and consequently that the Citizens of America (with a few legal and official exceptions) from 18 to 50 Years of Age should be borne on the Militia Rolls, provided with uniform Arms, and so far accustomed to the use of them, that the Total strength of the Country might be called forth at a Short Notice on any very interesting Emergency." - George Washington. Letter to Alexander Hamilton, Friday, May 02, 1783

THE RIGHT TO BUY WEAPONS IS THE RIGHT TO BE FREE - A. E. van Vogt, The Weapon Shops of Isher

Big Frank

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Re: ATF Declares the Q Honey Badger Pistol an SBR
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2020, 12:12:14 AM »
ATF’s tech branch is known to change their minds. The bumpstock is probably the most famous reversal, but in the grand scheme was a lower impact event.

The implications of that reversal were not low impact and here we see that result.

Q C&D Letter

Basically, Q got told that the Honey Badger Pistol is a Short Barreled Rifle, even though it has a brace and was built as a pistol. There are rifle and SBR variants but the pistol has been declared an SBR. Every single Honey Badger Pistol is now an illegally transferred NFA item that did not make it onto any ATF Form 1, 2, 3, or 4’s for proper transfer and none of the NFA taxes were paid. A single NFA violation can result in a $250,000 fine and 10 years in prison.

Additionally, Q has been directed to send samples of the Mini Fix and Sugar Weasel to the ATF for classification… It is that last one that becomes the most problematic. The Honey Badger has enough proprietary features that it could still be isolated, technically, from other pistols and the Mini Fix does too. Both of those firearms with legal pistol definitions (up until now) are different enough that the ATF might now be able to apply the ruling to anything outside that specific Q Model.

But, the Sugar Weasel Pistol, is an AR Pistol.

All the pretense at being a proprietary product is gone and any technical protections that would offer to the rest of the braced pistol market go with it. I do not know if the ATF would need to systematically drop C&D’s to every major and minor manufacturer but it seems like they selected a smaller company for a reason. Springfield Armory probably has the bank to protect the SAINT pistol(s).

The Honey Badger was close enough to be more than worrisome (beyond the fact SBRs shouldn’t be a problem in the first place) but if the Q Sugar Weasel gets declared an SBR every single AR pistol is in the crosshairs for C&D and retroactive NFA registration.

Anyone who owns a Honey Badger is in standby right now, waiting on the ATF to tell Q what to do.

There have been rumors that braces were in the crosshairs (again) and now we see the opening salvo from a manufacturing perspective.

How so?

The ATF declared the fully factory assembled Honey Badger Pistol an SBR, meaning they didn’t target the SB Tactical Brace specifically, they targeted whole firearm. They’re hitting Q with, essentially, tax evasion for every Honey Badger Pistol and adding improper transfer of NFA items.

Bumpstocks may have been a gimmick, that shouldn’t have mattered to their defense because now braced pistols, a highly popular firearm type, are in trouble too.

https://gatdaily.com/atf-issues-cd-to-q-for-the-honey-badger-pistol/
""It may be laid down as a primary position, and the basis of our system, that every Citizen who enjoys the protection of a free Government, owes not only a proportion of his property, but even his personal services to the defence of it, and consequently that the Citizens of America (with a few legal and official exceptions) from 18 to 50 Years of Age should be borne on the Militia Rolls, provided with uniform Arms, and so far accustomed to the use of them, that the Total strength of the Country might be called forth at a Short Notice on any very interesting Emergency." - George Washington. Letter to Alexander Hamilton, Friday, May 02, 1783

THE RIGHT TO BUY WEAPONS IS THE RIGHT TO BE FREE - A. E. van Vogt, The Weapon Shops of Isher

billt

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Re: ATF Declares the Q Honey Badger Pistol an SBR
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2020, 02:11:27 AM »
This looks like a quick way for the ATF to collect A LOT of money from AR type "pistol" owners. Watch what comes next after their, "Cease And Desist Order". "A Rapidly Expedited SBR Application Process". (The "Honey Badger" is no different than a lot of other similar guns like them). The ATF left enough leeway in this whole "brace" fiasco, that too much was left up to interpretation. Only now, after boxcar loads of these things have been manufactured and sold, they've decided to start ringing the bell on them.   

And there are literally tens of thousands of these things out there. They're extremely popular. And with the ATF standing to collect $200.00 from every citizen who owns one, that's quite a payday for them. This is all about $$$ MONEY $$$. Many gun owners have thousands sunk into these things, by the time you add up optics and accessories. They'll gladly pay the $200.00 to keep them. Especially if they get "grandfathered in".

Also, other gun makers are going to get leery real fast, and shut down production on these things until this mess gets all straightened out. And I doubt it will. The anti gunners are going to be all over this. Watch how fast you see Dianne Feinstein fumbling around with one in front of the cameras.

Never bought one, but wish I did. These things could either skyrocket in value..... Or else make you a criminal overnight. A bit like rolling on the Pass Line in Vegas.

billt

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Re: ATF Declares the Q Honey Badger Pistol an SBR
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2020, 02:46:16 AM »
I'm just spit balling here, but my guess is if they're going to keep making these things, they're going to have to sell them with an actual pistol grip on them like these. Or else the manufacturer is going to have to provide conversion kits. If they do I doubt they'll be "free". Possibly the bigger manufacturers like Ruger will provide them. And a lot of them will be made all but useless in the process, because the weight distribution will royally suck with only a pistol grip. Especially if you have optics. Both of mine at best are, "minute of pop can". Because you can't get a steady sight picture that's worth a $h!t, because of the design. It was the brace itself that made this design useful.

Another problem is a ton of these things have been built from "kits" on "pistol frames". (And I believe you cannot convert a AR pistol to a rifle once the frame has been serial numbered and sold as such). Which will require the owners to either convert to an actual pistol with a pistol grip, or apply for the SBR license.

And yet another problem is A LOT of states simply won't grant these SBR licenses to anyone and everyone. Owners of these things in states like Illinois, New York, and Massachusetts, just off the top of my head may have problems. Depending on how long this mess is allowed to stink. And how many agencies get involved at the state level. I may be getting a little ahead of myself here, but this has all the makings of turning into a real bureaucratic mess on steroids. Much like the whole "Bump Stock" deal, it never should have been allowed to go this far. The ATF is more indecisive than a woman in a shoe store.   

 


Big Frank

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Re: ATF Declares the Q Honey Badger Pistol an SBR
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2020, 12:20:30 AM »
You can convert any type of pistol into a rifle, but once a rifle, always a rifle. There's no going back.

P.S. ATF doesn't have the power to make laws so they shouldn't be able to get away with crap like this.
""It may be laid down as a primary position, and the basis of our system, that every Citizen who enjoys the protection of a free Government, owes not only a proportion of his property, but even his personal services to the defence of it, and consequently that the Citizens of America (with a few legal and official exceptions) from 18 to 50 Years of Age should be borne on the Militia Rolls, provided with uniform Arms, and so far accustomed to the use of them, that the Total strength of the Country might be called forth at a Short Notice on any very interesting Emergency." - George Washington. Letter to Alexander Hamilton, Friday, May 02, 1783

THE RIGHT TO BUY WEAPONS IS THE RIGHT TO BE FREE - A. E. van Vogt, The Weapon Shops of Isher

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Re: ATF Declares the Q Honey Badger Pistol an SBR
« Reply #5 on: Today at 12:50:14 PM »

tombogan03884

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Re: ATF Declares the Q Honey Badger Pistol an SBR
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2020, 08:31:42 AM »
That was what SCOTUS decided about T/C arms Contenders 40 years ago.
ATF isn't changing any law.
They have changed a policy, which you and congress have no say about.
The fact that it is only one of the dozens of brands makes me think there is more to it than just a swamp creature in ATF.

billt

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Re: ATF Declares the Q Honey Badger Pistol an SBR
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2020, 08:42:36 AM »
That was what SCOTUS decided about T/C arms Contenders 40 years ago.
ATF isn't changing any law.
They have changed a policy, which you and congress have no say about.
The fact that it is only one of the dozens of brands makes me think there is more to it than just a swamp creature in ATF.

Tom, you'll know more about this than me. But didn't all of this crap get started with the "illegality" of putting a T/C pistol barrel on a T/C rifle receiver with a shoulder stock? If I remember correctly they, (anti gun Democratic legislators), were trying to make even owning both, (rifle receiver and pistol barrel), a crime. Even if they were not assembled as such.

And I think it went to the Supreme Court. Where it was Sandra Day O'Conner who said owning a rifle receiver, and a pistol barrel, did not show or prove criminal intent. Any more than owning a shotgun and a hacksaw was not the same as owning a sawed off shotgun. Or some such.

tombogan03884

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Re: ATF Declares the Q Honey Badger Pistol an SBR
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2020, 08:48:04 AM »
Specifically it was the 45/410 that drew the attention, but the case spread to the whole concept of interchangeable barrels .

TAB

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Re: ATF Declares the Q Honey Badger Pistol an SBR
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2020, 01:16:59 PM »
Lets be honest, the whole sbr /sbs. Stuff is so convoluted and has so many exceptions that it really needa to be scrapped.
Its more policy then law, if they truly  feel that these weapons needed to be controlled, congress really should rewrite the nfa as a whole.   We all know that will never happen, nor will the nfa go away.  There has been 2 crimes commited with registed machine guns in the gands of thier legal owners since 34.   One was a doctor coming home to find his wife in bed with another man, he mag dumped into both of them. The other was in 88 when a dea agent  used his to kill his wife and tried to make it look like a gang hit.   The 1st one the machine gun was irrelevant, he would hace killed them with any gun.  The 2nd is also irrelevant  as he killed her becuase she was devoricing him.  He also is one of the " trusted with machine guns" class of people.   

Oh yeah the honey badger thing was from obummer appointees and is being walked back. It was from  a branch that does not ecen make these decisions. They were trying to make trump look bad in the eyes of gun owners.
I always break all the clay pigeons,  some times its even with lead.

tombogan03884

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Re: ATF Declares the Q Honey Badger Pistol an SBR
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2020, 09:25:43 AM »
Surprisingly the DEA agent doesn't count because he used an issued full auto, not a privately owned NFA gun.
As soon as pistols were kept legal the whole SBR/ SBS thing lost all meaning and justification.
The "braced pistols" are a recognition of that.

 

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