Group protesting police purchasing M4s

[tombogan03884]

If I am going to switch from what I see to what I believe should be:

1.  Can anyone imagine trying to walk a beat with an M-4 on top of everything else;

2.  Can you imagine an officer in close quarters picking through the different weapons options;

3.  Can you imagine the amount of training to keep all these officers current in the uses and proficiency of these weapons ... all this added to what they already need.

I am basically with Haz.  A good reliable handgun, spare magazines (or clips if you chose that type of handgun), and practice for proficiency!

TAB's comment partly addresses the concern about training, I saw the same article, ( I think it was American Rifleman)

[Rastus]

"Stop or I'll shoot!"  That should take about two weeks and crime would drop....but then who would the thugs that run Chicago use that on?

I vaguely remember New Orleans had in the 60's, for about 2 weeks, a stop or shoot order.  Crime came to a standstill.......then they had to rescind it...back to mayhem....

[MikeBjerum]

Yakov Smirnoff used to have a bit where he talked about crime.  He said in Russia a warning shot was when the shot the guy running next to you.

[TAB]

TAB's comment partly addresses the concern about training, I saw the same article, ( I think it was American Rifleman)

There is a big diffrence between a pump action rifle that holds 10 rounds and  a semi auto rifle that holds 30... just ask the CA DOJ.   

I think an AR right next to them( next to the shot gun) is too much.  Now having a few with it in the trunk, thats another story.  Giving one to every one that can qualify with it(I could have passed the qualifaction of my LEA when I was 10) is a sign of how far they have gone from protect and serve.   Think about it for a second, when was the last time you had a good EXP with a LEO?   yes, them giving you a ticket is a good exp, if they treat you with respect.( assuming you were not an ass with them)  In the last 5 years I can only think of one good exp I have had.  It was not only good, It was great.   The officer bent over backwards to help me out of a jamb.  Infact I was so greatful I catered lunch for the entire office and wrote lettes to his direct supervizor, the regional supervizor and the head of the CHP... kind of funny how the only reply I got was from his direct supervizor. 

[Pathfinder]

I've made my thoughts on LEOs well known on this site, so no further comment here. Chicago is no exception.

Having worked for decades in Chicago, and knowing some of the CPD people, there is no way in hell I would want any of them carrying an M4 in anything other than a SWAT situation, and maybe not even then. I can't even recall all of the numerous improper cop shooting a civilian episodes and those were with revolvers. Can you imagine them with M4s?

Scary thought.

[Sponsor]

[ericire12]

There is a big diffrence between a pump action rifle that holds 10 rounds and  a semi auto rifle that holds 30... just ask the CA DOJ. 

The Remington 7615P can use standard AR magazines (30 rds)

http://www.remingtonle.com/rifles/7615.htm



Do you guys not remember the West Hollywood bank robbery shoot out back in 1997?
http://www.cnn.com/US/9703/01/bank.shootout/

Those cops and their Berettas were severely out gunned by those guns with the AKs. I think police officers should have M4s in their patrol cars for such situations. I know I would feel much better if I had to go to an "active shooter" call and could pull an M4 out of my trunk when I arrived on scene.

[TAB]

The Remington 7615P can use standard AR magazines (30 rds)

http://www.remingtonle.com/rifles/7615.htm



Do you guys not remember the West Hollywood bank robbery shoot out back in 1997?
http://www.cnn.com/US/9703/01/bank.shootout/

Those cops and their Berettas were severely out gunned by those guns with the AKs. I think police officers should have M4s in their patrol cars for such situations. I know I would feel much better if I had to go to an "active shooter" call and could pull an M4 out of my trunk when I arrived on scene.

That shoot out is the reason why just about every LEA got ARs.  You have to remember that happend in LA... its a complete diffrent country.  Its also one of the main reason why we got a AWB.( in ca)  THe one good thing that shoot out did do was allow officers to carry something other then 9mm and slug ammo in thier cars.  If they had slugs things would have been very diffrent.  As is they ran to a gun store and bought ARs... they could not have done that now as 99% of FFLs in CA do not stock them.   The gun I shot could not take AR mags, still there is a big diffrence between a manually operated gun and a semi auto... once again as the CA DOJ.  If we have to arm LEOs for what might happen, might as well give them TOW missles.   There have been more cases where some one has stole a tank/ APC/ Armored car then there has been heavly armed and armored crimals.

[Majer]

Ok, so give them a 9mm version of the M-4, they can use the same ammo as their sidearm(less ammo costs, less chance of over penetration ) and it still has the intimidation factor (Evil Black Rifle) they're looking for. Under stress most people can shoot a rifle easier/more accurately than a side arm.

[jnevis]

First: I am honestly surprised that none of you noticed that a CHICAGO newspaper actually reported that Mayor Daley was not only lying but assault weapons aren't to blame for everything:

But last month, a Daily News review of federal firearms statistics suggests the number of assault weapons seized from Illinois criminals is not on the rise. Nor is the number of homicides committed with rifles in the nation. And rifles have been responsible on average for 15 percent of officer deaths each of the last six years.

Second: I am all for a department getting ahead of the power curve to stop streat crime.  I just find it absurd that Chicago of all places is getting M4s when it wasn't six months ago Mayor Daley was trying to get everybody to turn in thier personal guns and saying that Heller means nothing to him.  

Most dept's I have worked around/with the M4 type weapons aren't general issue or they are qualified with in lieu of or addition to the shotgun.  The officers have the option.  No one WALKS with it, it's in the trunk of the cruiser.  (This isn't Europe! ) When I ran the range we qualified everyone on the M9, M16, and shotgun no matter what.  Range staff also qualified M11 (Sig 228) and M14.  Everyone on patrol had an M9 and a couple had shotguns on shift.  The M16s were only broke out for higher security levels so most Patrolmen didn't handle it much.  It showed on the range but everybody eventually qual'd.


TAB:  The officers in North Hollyweird HAD access to slugs for the shotguns but didn't use them.  Yes the shotgun slug would have slowed/stopped the two robbers but  they were pinned down to far out to be effective.  None of those guns were purchased at the time, B&B Sales GAVE the LAPD the rifles but charged them afterward.  I talked with the owner while I was still in San Diego.

Problem with the 9mm AR is the round doesn't have the energy or velocity, even through the longer barrel, to stop armored (happens more and more) assailants.  Also 9mm punches through walls and bodies with enough energy to hit a bystander while 223 tumbles and dissipates faster so less penetration.  If you hadn't noticed that is why most SWAT guys have moved away from the MP5 to the AR over the last ten years or so

[ericire12]

I cant help but be reminded of this fool: