8 year old dies at gun fair.

[Scott Moore]

You are so correct on size as a factor, but I do think the comparison between the 49 year old women and the 16 year old may not be correct. Let’s look at Olympian Kim Rhode who at 13 won her first world championship title in women's double trap shooting and won a gold medal at the 1996 Summer Games, making her the youngest female gold medalist in the history of Olympic shooting at just a few days past her 17th birthday.
Again, I think should be looked at case by case.

[SwoopSJ]

You can say that age is not a factor in this tragedy, only physical size but have you ever seen an 8 year old you would deem capable of physically handeling a full auto firearm.  I personally have not, and I come from a family with some monsterous people.  I myself am a big man and I don't believe it would have been a responsible thing for me to attempt, at that age.  Like I posted previously, I have never fired a full auto firearm, but people who have tell me that without a lot of experience they are difficult to control even for an adult.  If the child had been even slightly older, maybe 10 or 11, and big for his age, then I guess the "non issue" argument could be made.  (Before someone brings it up:  If you are 4ft tall, it doesn't matter if your 8, 18, or 80, you shouldn't be fireing a full auto weapon.  However, if your 18 or 80, you atleast have better muscle control and hopefully more experience.)  Of course I could be wrong... just my opinion.  Take it for what it's worth.

Swoop

[Rastus]

Old europe, I doubt is either in Europe or European.  I'm more towards that person being in one of the liberal internet smoke rooms trying to influence the election.  Get a crack in the door on something then crow about their candidate..even at the expense of exploiting tragedy.

Another feel-good, fact-be-damned, take-it-out-of-context voter that feels they have the answers....ignoring the facts of history.  Tom did it right when he mentioned, Armenia, the Jews......

We have a fascist regime struggling to come to power.  Their supporters are too uneducated and ignorant to see what it is they are supporting---they may be learned people of some facet and intelligent, but they have ignored all but what they wanted to learn at all our perils.  The liberals do well for themselves by using many time proven techniques utilized by the Nazis.  They whip their crowds to frenzy, they twist their platform to look positive by methods of deception and denial, they stifle free speech by threats, lawsuits and economic bludgeons.  The lie, spoken often enough, and long enough, becomes the truth for the simple minded; and there are many of them, our fellow citizens, among us.

The culmination of liberal efforts, realized or not, are usually assumed by some power-crazed leader some years in the future after a "change".  We have only ourselves to blame and this liberal path is not the U.S.A. I grew up in and countless souls have died to defend.  As we continue to lose our path here, we become more like peoples abroad lacking the Spirit of God and American values of fairness, justice and freedom we have enjoyed well past 200 years.  The path of the fascist abroad, and as we become like others why not here, may well be echoed in words heard in Europe last century and paraphrased from one of our esteemed members here, "Stay in line, shut-up, get in the boxcar."

[saltydogbk]

  As a parent of two gun shooting children, I feel bad for the the parents who lost a son.  But as that parent of two kids, who has also started many kids shooting, I know the answer. SUPERVISION.  When I take kids out, I am all over them.  Never do I turn my back.
   I will say a prayer for all involved.

[PegLeg45]

Oldeurope, I doubt is either in Europe or European.  I'm more towards that person being in one of the liberal internet smoke rooms trying to influence the election.  Get a crack in the door on something then crow about their candidate.

Another feel-good, fact-be-damned, take-it-out-of-context voter that feels they have the answers....ignoring the facts of history.  Tom did it right when he mentioned, Armenia, the Jews......

We have a fascist regime struggling to come to power.  Their supporters are too uneducated and ignorant to see what it is they are supporting---they may be learned people of some facet and intelligent, but they have ignored all but what they wanted to learn at all our perils.  The liberals do well for themselves by using many time proven techniques utilized by the Nazis.  They whip their crowds to frenzy, they twist their platform to look positive by methods of deception and denial, they stifle free speech by threats, lawsuits and economic bludgeons.  The lie, spoken often enough, and long enough, becomes the truth for the simple minded; and there are many of them, our fellow citizens, among us.

The culmination of liberal efforts, realized or not, are usually assumed by some power-crazed leader some years in the future after a "change".  We have only ourselves to blame and this liberal path is not the U.S.A. I grew up in and countless souls have died to defend.  As we continue to lose our path here, we become more like peoples abroad lacking the Spirit of God and American values of fairness, justice and freedom we have enjoyed well past 200 years.  The path of the fascist abroad, and as we become like others why not here, may well be echoed in words heard in Europe last century and paraphrased from one of our esteemed members here, "Stay in line, shut-up, get in the boxcar."

Well said, sir, well said.

[Sponsor]

[tombogan03884]

You are so correct on size as a factor, but I do think the comparison between the 49 year old women and the 16 year old may not be correct. Let’s look at Olympian Kim Rhode who at 13 won her first world championship title in women's double trap shooting and won a gold medal at the 1996 Summer Games, making her the youngest female gold medalist in the history of Olympic shooting at just a few days past her 17th birthday.
Again, I think should be looked at case by case.

Scott, I used a woman I used to work with and my ex wife as a teen, people I knew, as I was looking for extremes at 2am 

[fullautovalmet76]

Not sure how you can put an age limit such as 18; does this have to do with physical or mental abilities. I’m not bustin’ on you; it’s just that if we can trust a 10 – 12 year old with a 12ga shotgun on a trap or skeet range how can we place a limit on a select fire firearm.

The short answer: My guns. My rules.

The long answer:
The issue with age for me has to do with liability and judgment. At age 18 that person is legally responsible for their actions. Also, at that age they have the minimum in judgment that I would find comfortable for me. But keep in mind that age and physical ability are necessary but not sufficient conditions! There is more to it for me.

A little parallel reasoning: Would you feel comfortable letting a 16 year old kid driving your completely original 1967 Chevrolet Corvette Roadster, a car that sells for well over 100K? The kid has their driver's license, they have been driving all of 18 months, and they have been driving their parent's car with no problems. You would not....

And lastly, I have to ask: do you own a select-fire weapon or have owned one? I normally hear things like that from people who have never shot one or have never owned one. "I'm not bustin' on you....."

[fullautovalmet76]

Old europe, I doubt is either in Europe or European.  I'm more towards that person being in one of the liberal internet smoke rooms trying to influence the election.  Get a crack in the door on something then crow about their candidate..even at the expense of exploiting tragedy.

Another feel-good, fact-be-damned, take-it-out-of-context voter that feels they have the answers....ignoring the facts of history.  Tom did it right when he mentioned, Armenia, the Jews......

We have a fascist regime struggling to come to power.  Their supporters are too uneducated and ignorant to see what it is they are supporting---they may be learned people of some facet and intelligent, but they have ignored all but what they wanted to learn at all our perils.  The liberals do well for themselves by using many time proven techniques utilized by the Nazis.  They whip their crowds to frenzy, they twist their platform to look positive by methods of deception and denial, they stifle free speech by threats, lawsuits and economic bludgeons.  The lie, spoken often enough, and long enough, becomes the truth for the simple minded; and there are many of them, our fellow citizens, among us.

The culmination of liberal efforts, realized or not, are usually assumed by some power-crazed leader some years in the future after a "change".  We have only ourselves to blame and this liberal path is not the U.S.A. I grew up in and countless souls have died to defend.  As we continue to lose our path here, we become more like peoples abroad lacking the Spirit of God and American values of fairness, justice and freedom we have enjoyed well past 200 years.  The path of the fascist abroad, and as we become like others why not here, may well be echoed in words heard in Europe last century and paraphrased from one of our esteemed members here, "Stay in line, shut-up, get in the boxcar."

I second that!!

[fullautovalmet76]

Like I posted previously, I have never fired a full auto firearm, but people who have tell me that without a lot of experience they are difficult to control even for an adult.

Swoop,
I agree with your general point. However, they are not all difficult to control. Some are easier than others. The biggest thing is people misjudge the recoil and they hold them incorrectly when firing.

[Scott Moore]

The short answer: My guns. My rules.

The long answer:
The issue with age for me has to do with liability and judgment. At age 18 that person is legally responsible for their actions. Also, at that age they have the minimum in judgment that I would find comfortable for me. But keep in mind that age and physical ability are necessary but not sufficient conditions! There is more to it for me.

A little parallel reasoning: Would you feel comfortable letting a 16 year old kid driving your completely original 1967 Chevrolet Corvette Roadster, a car that sells for well over 100K? The kid has their driver's license, they have been driving all of 18 months, and they have been driving their parent's car with no problems. You would not....

And lastly, I have to ask: do you own a select-fire weapon or have owned one? I normally hear things like that from people who have never shot one or have never owned one. "I'm not bustin' on you....."

Fortunately I have family & friends with various select fire / class 3 firearms, so all I have to do is feed them when I wish to let ‘er rip. Also I spent over 12 years managing a gun store with an indoor range. Several times we had a class 3 dealer bring in some of his firearms for “special machinegun days” at the range. Similar to what is described in the story. The general public could come in, and for a small fee plus ammo, could shoot the sub machine gun of their choice.
As far as machine guns I have shot (again thanks to family & friends) include: Uzi- 9mm, Swedish K – 9mm, S&W Mod 76 – 9mm (my favorite), M-16 A2 - .223, Ruger AC556 - .223, H&K MP5K – 9mm, H&K G3 – 308, FN FAL - .308, Japanese Type 92 – 7.7mm, Mauser Mod 712 – 7.63mm (the hardest one for me to shoot), Ingram M10 - .45ACP & 9mm, Ingram M11 - .389 acp., Erma MP40 – 9mm, H&R M14 - .308, Browning 1918A2 - .30-06.
It is interesting that I’ve never shot either the Valmet or other AK variants in fullauto, though I have shot them on semi. I must say we used to sale a few Valmet semis and they seem to be the best made and appearing AK variant, along with Galil.
Also one of my clients is the Gen. George S. Patton Museum. I’ve had the chance to explore their gun vault, while I haven’t had a chance to shoot some of the items, I did get the chance to handle (fondle more like it) some nice pieces!
Again I don’t own any class 3’s but being in the Shooting Industry for over 30 years I’ve had a chance, through class 3 dealers, Police departments and factory reps to shoot many fun guns and interesting (well all guns are fun). I’ve been very fortunate to say the least!!

You said . . . “your guns – your rules” you are correct. I just believe when it comes to age and size to determine when a person can shoot should be done on a case by case basis. I guess you can say . . . “my rules”
Enjoy your Valmet!
Scott