Gun Debate - US vs Europe?

[tombogan03884]

This is really a bit drastic, far-fetched and/or not true - or sadly true for allmost any politician (exept Warren Beatty in that one movie, whose title I can't remember just now).
Consider some of these:
Did Obama try to overthrow the government (with guns by the way).
Did he - let's say - burn down congress to come to power.
Hitler actually kept quite close to the rich except if they happend to be jewish, those were the ones he blamed. Did Obama put blame on any etnic group for anything?
Did Obama form an "SA" and used terror and force on a large scale to come to power?
Even though it disgust one - reading "Mein Kampf" for scholarly reasons could give you a new perspective.
I know comparisons with Hitler are a popular dead-beat argumentation, but that can get ridicolous.

The perspective I got was that his speaking may have "raised the masses" his writing put them to sleep, It's a good thing the Chancellor job worked out for him because otherwise he would have done no better as an author than he did as a painter. Yes, I know Mien Kampf made him a millionaire, but I GUARANTEE it was only because he had the power to make it required reading. He was no Steven Hunter, that's for sure.

[Marshal Halloway]

oldEurope,
 
I am the editor of DRTV and a second amendment absolutist. I am also a Norwegian with years of experience fighting for gun privileges both for my fellow Norwegians and now gun rights for my fellow Americans. More on the difference between privileges and rights later.
 
I still have to wait a couple of more years before I formally can call myself a US citizen, but for the record: The day I decided to live here permanently and for personal reasons (not political or financial), I took a personal oath of allegiance and it was easy to do. Reason being: My passion for individual rights and liberty and what it means for a free world.
 
I am also a NRA member and I signed on as a member while living in Europe. NRA is the last bastion and their objectives reach out to more than their primary membership. They have been an alert dog for the hidden agenda of the UN to establish a worldwide ban on civilian gun ownership.
 
I was "raised and educated" to become a social democrat in my younger years and turned conservative when I learned first hand that labor unions' and a liberal government's love of power established a disconnection with the people they served. This was also fueled by the fact that I got tired of increased taxes combined with collective privileges and how they opened up the borders for people who were looking more for welfare checks than a freedom of choice.
 
But I was also raised by a generation who lived through five years of Nazi occupancy and who rebuilt the country which included the reestablishment of a strong Home Guard and the importance of promoting "marksmanship throughout the population and thus prepare the population for National Defense". This is one of the reasons there are guns in every third household in Norway and why there is a so called strong gun culture in that country.
 
A gun culture is not founded by gun nuts - it is founded by an understanding of how the power of a government can be turned against "we the people". It is also funded by the fact that we all have a personal responsibility to protect our own lives. It is also funded by the fact that guns are used for hunting, recreational purposes and competition.
 
The big majority of the US gun culture is comprised of regular law abiding citizens from both sides of the political aisle. They are for the most part a silent group of citizens. They rarely get any media attention or get profiled in Hollywood movies. What's left when it comes to attention, is the exceptions who this silent majority distance themselves from.
 
When looking at the US from the outside (living in the US for a year is not enough), it takes a lot more to understand what this is all about.
 
US was founded by European immigrants who had experienced how kings and governments can turn against their own people. They understood by experience that freedom could not be taken for granted and that a constitution alone would not protect them from tyranny and suppression. The consequence was the Bill of Rights and emphasized the difference between privileges and God given rights.
 
Europeans in general have a lack of understanding what the Second Amendment is all about. They also have a lack of understanding what gun rights in general is all about. The combination of the "education" from Hollywood movies, liberal bias in the media and the European love for big government and control, makes it impossible for them to see through their own standards of thoughts when it comes to the US gun culture.
 
On the other hand, Americans don't understand the Europeans either, simply because there is not just one European culture. There is no Unites States of Europe, no European federal government besides the attempt of an European Union. We are talking about different countries, different languages and cultures. We are also talking about a wide range of different gun laws and privileges from countries with strict gun laws to countries with more liberal gun laws than in the state of California.
 
What both continents have in common are the same political solutions when it comes to solving the so called gun problem. When we have tragedies like Columbine (Colorado), Dunblane (Scotland), Erfurt (Germany), we experience the same attempt of a quick fix which only have an effect on the law abiding citizens. It does not solve the reasons behind such tragedies.
 
Since the gun laws in Europe represent a privilege, they can be taken away almost overnight. And here comes another commonality: Both continents have criminals who don't follow the laws. Their rights (in their own mind) are untouched no matter what.
 
Most gun owners in Europe and also Australia understand the US gun culture. Many of them have experienced first hand how privileges have been taken away not because they represented a problem, but because of politician's eager to find a quick fix. The political quick fix represents cosmetic values, not practical solutions.

oldEurope, you may think you are representing Europe in your viewpoints, but you're not. You represent your personal viewpoints and you have the right to do so.

[jaybet]

Thanks Marshall, that's a perspective I have never heard in such depth. Sometimes it takes a view from "afar" to see the reality that we become accustomed to.

[Ocin]

Well spoken Marshall and thanks for your insights.

Ocin

[MikeBjerum]

Marshal,

You just brought back sooooooooooo many memories.  As I read I could "hear" my grandparents and other relatives talking about why they came over.  Not all the same as you, but they came for reasons, and they came 100%.  They talked about the "old country," but not much.  They always talked about how good this Country was for them.  They also were some of the strongest community supporters there ever were.

Thank you for the post and for reflecting the type of imigration this Nation was built WITH!

[Sponsor]

[TSB]

Marshall,

That speech qualifies your citizenship more than any oath you will take in the future.  I venture to guess that most folks born in this country could not have said it so eloquently.

Tusen takk,

Timothy

[mosbear]

Just for Info:
Everything I've listed took place, BEFORE Hitler was in Office

Dear oldeurope!

This sentiment is attributed to Flavius Vegetius Renatus, who wrote in the "De re militari" (390 B.C.E.): "Qui desiderat pacem, bellum praeparat; nemo provocare ne offendere audet quem intelliget superiorem esse pugnaturem". (Whosoever desires peace prepares for war; no one provokes, nor dares to offend, those who they know know to be superior in battle.)

Here is the quote and the brief reminder for those who think otherwise.

"The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow
the subject races to possess arms. History shows that all
conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms
have prepared their own downfall by so doing."

Adolph Hitler

Perpetrator Government: Ottoman Turkey
Date: 1915-17
Targets: Christian Armenians
Murdered (est.): 1.5 million
Date of Gun Control Law: 1866-1911
Source Documents: Article 166, Penal Code

Perpetrator Government: Soviet Union
Date: 1929-53
Targets: Christians, Peasants
Murdered (est.): 36 million
Date of Gun Control Law: 1929
Source Documents: Article 182, Penal Code

Perpetrator Government: Nazi Germany & occupied Europe
Date: 1933-45
Targets: Jews, Gypsies, Christians, Anti-Nazis
Murdered (est.): 13 million
Date of Gun Control Law: 4/12/1928-3/18/1938
Source Documents: Law on Firearms & Ammunition; Weapons Law

Perpetrator Government: China
Date: 1949-52, 1966-76
Targets: Christians, Anti-Communists, Pro-Reformers
Murdered (est.): 60 million
Date of Gun Control Law: 1935-10/22/1957
Source Documents: Articles 186-7, Penal Code; Article 9, Security Law

Perpetrator Government: Uganda
Date: 1971-79
Targets: Christian Political Rivals
Murdered (est.): 600,000
Date of Gun Control Law: 1955-1970
Source Documents: Firearms Ordinance; Firearms Act

Perpetrator Government: Cambodia
Date: 1975-79
Targets: Educated Persons
Murdered (est.): 3 million
Date of Gun Control Law: 1956
Source Documents: Articles 322-8; Penal Code

Perpetrator Government: Rwanda
Date: 1990-94
Targets: Christian Tutsi
Murdered (est.): 500,000
Date of Gun Control Law: 1964
Source Documents: Law on the Control of Firearms

[jerry]

Very well said Marshall. 

[rich642z]

We will have here in the states a gun control law that will or will not be as tough as the one in 94.  there are speculations of this happening to us.  alot of us like to own,collect,go to gunshows and see the history of the collectables firearms that have been made before our time.  We who are collectors of rare firearms do shoot the ones we want to keep in the generations of our families to come and pass them on when the GOOD LORD calls us to his home.  collecting rare firearms to me who is disabled is a hobby of mine.     I have my late grandfathers Nazi marked Browning Hi-Power 9mm pistol that he found on a dead german officer and had willed it to me when he passed on. It even has the original ammo in the magazines.    I had to fill out government firearm forms at the dealer and get insured along with my other firearms and get it registered according to city ordanaces prescribe. So that is what is in it for me.      I even got the duty belt along with the gun and holster.  So there you have it in a words from me . And in conclusion on this statement from the late Charelston Heston,,,,,,,,,,FROM MY COLD DEAD HANDS.........   And from me,,,,,,,,,,  MAYBE NOT!!!!!!  rich642z,UNITED STATES OF AMERICA    AND TO THE REPUBLIC FOR WHICH IT STANDS.ONE NATION,UNDER GOD,,,,,,,   WITH LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL.   AMEN      GO IN PEACE,,,,,SERVE THE LORD.

[runstowin]

US was founded by European immigrants who had experienced how kings and governments can turn against their own people. They understood by experience that freedom could not be taken for granted and that a constitution alone would not protect them from tyranny and suppression. The consequence was the Bill of Rights and emphasized the difference between privileges and God given rights.


I appreciate you pointing out the fact that we have God given rights. The constitution doesn't gives us rights it is there to enforce them. We need to hold our congress critters and our other government employees collective feet to the fire.