Gun Debate - US vs Europe?

[brosometal]

oldeurope,

I am a bit late as my schedule has not put me close to a computer since the aforementioned happened.  After reading through the thread I noticed you started as a guest and have joined the form.  Welcome. 

Please be advised, however, that when you start a conversation throwing "rocks" here, there will be some incoming shortly thereafter. There are strongly held beliefs from a variety of folks.  And they will let you know.  IM Haz and ask the difference between clips and magazines.    

I understand that you have visited our country and have some unique viewpoints.  I also understand that there are different mindsets: Old Europe (the place not your name) and the New World (the USA).  There is a reason for the differentiation.  Just a quick history lesson:  The USA was formed by people who threw off the "old" world thought of control to a "new" world of freedom.  When you break down the gun issue addressed here it will go back to that simple concept.  You mentioned, "Practically there are too many people not responsible enough or just too plain stupid to handle guns responsibly. Also, the 2nd amendment is too often used as a sorry excuse by guncrazy idiots. Freedoms are cool, when people can handle them."  When approached from a control standpoint (old world thought) this would seem to  be a logical progression.  The question I would ask is:  Who will be the arbiter of responsibly?  Who decides?  This becomes the proverbial "sticky wicket".  You are at the mercy of the powers that be at the time.  Now I could insert an ominous reference to some bad guy, but I will let you insert your own. 

As for the Freedom standpoint (new world thought), everyone has "inalienable rights" (We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights...) in other words, when the new world threw off the shackles of the old world used the very document that declared our independence to show that freedom was the basis and not control.  This was further illustrated by the Bill of Rights that included the dreaded 2nd Amendment.  The rights mentioned therein are limits to the government's power not the individual's.  Without the 2nd amendment the rest are just some good ideas on paper.  The 2nd gives the Bill of Rights teeth.  Dig up King George and ask him.

Now that I've bored you completely, back to the issue at hand.  When one uses an isolated incident, that person's world view will temper how the incident is viewed.   This is why you ran afoul of most here.  The loss of a child's life in such an unnecessary manner sickens all.  To add a political agenda to that loss would raise the ire of any "new worlder".

Thanks for joining and I look forward to future conversations.  Just remember, if you are asking questions to advance an agenda there will be some spirited exchanges.  If you ask with an open mind the exchanges may still be spirited but you will learn as will we.

[tombogan03884]

Brosometal, That was well said. As usual 

[Rastus]

................... When guns get too much importance in peoples lives this can easily corrupt trust and solidarity among people. That is not good and very unamerican. Guns are not the origin of problems, but they can help to promote them, rather then solve them.
Just a little insight into my head - I don't think many here will appriciate it, though. ..............
By the way: I was taught how to shoot in the US. I observed the fascination it has and decided, that it wasn't for me. I'm convinced, that guns require a sound mind and a balanced character. Unfortunately other problems in your society prevent many people to acquire exactly that.

http://www.stephenhalbrook.com/article-nazilaw.pdf

As we are possibly on the eve of what, in Obama, may become a legacy of fascism as eschewed by liberal actions parralleling no less the initiatives of those who supported Hitler, your argument being shallow and without merit is at once both childish and narcissic.

[oldeurope]

Now that I've bored you completely, back to the issue at hand. 

Not boring at all. Thanks for this post.
Watch out here comes a new "rock", but it's not meant as a provocation, honestly. It's something I would like to exchange thoughts on. Even in the US you will have to agree, certain rights are controlled. Let's look at the issue of gay marriage. In many places they don't have the right to have equal rights -- to be created equal. I do have a feeling though, that not 5% of the people who fight passionately for 2nd A. would stir a finger to help to promote gay marriage. From an outside perspective, you develop a scepticism - is it really about rights and freedom or is a great deal of the original spirit perverted by "guncraziness" excuse my language, but I've seen people who I have difficulty to describe differently - obviously you are not one of them.

[oldeurope]

http://www.stephenhalbrook.com/article-nazilaw.pdf

As we are possibly on the eve of what, in Obama, may become a legacy of fascism as eschewed by liberal actions parralleling no less the initiatives of those who supported Hitler, your argument being shallow and without merit is at once both childish and narcissic.

Ok, if that makes me childish and narcistic, I would be interested, what you or other people here think, your comment tells about you.

[Sponsor]

[twyacht]

And I was also a little shocked to see, that no one took this tragedy as a trigger to reflect... by oldeurope....

Very presumptuous assertion, reflect on what?  The .000001 percent of gun owners that are idiots? The exponentially higher numbers of idiot drivers? The fact that there will always be a tiny portion of a society that "pervert" a right.

Your position is not supported by factual,statistical, raw data.

Here's what I reflect, I don't want a Nanny state. I don't want a government to consider the citizenry too irresponsible as a whole to own firearms, due to the .000001 percent that are idiots. 

Here's another statistic, criminals will get, acquire, and use firearms. REGARDLESS! 100% of the time. After all an unarmed victim is easy work. Perhaps the lemming mentality works for you and your ilk, but I prefer not to be a sheep led by the nose of a cradle to grave entitlement government that knows what's best for me,,,,Because they dont!


Here's a quote from an American who set the foundation of what most here believe.

"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have."
Thomas Jefferson

This is also a "firearm-related" forum not a soap box for your next "stone" re: gay marriage,....

[Rastus]

And I was also a little shocked to see, that no one took this tragedy as a trigger to reflect... by oldeurope....

Very presumptuous assertion, reflect on what?  The .000001 percent of gun owners that are idiots? The exponentially higher numbers of idiot drivers? The fact that there will always be a tiny portion of a society that "pervert" a right.

Your position is not supported by factual,statistical, raw data.

Here's what I reflect, I don't want a Nanny state. I don't want a government to consider the citizenry too irresponsible as a whole to own firearms, due to the .000001 percent that are idiots. 

Here's another statistic, criminals will get, acquire, and use firearms. REGARDLESS! 100% of the time. After all an unarmed victim is easy work. Perhaps the lemming mentality works for you and your ilk, but I prefer not to be a sheep led by the nose of a cradle to grave entitlement government that knows what's best for me,,,,Because they dont!


Here's a quote from an American who set the foundation of what most here believe.

"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have."
Thomas Jefferson

This is also a "firearm-related" forum not a soap box for your next "stone" re: gay marriage,....

Well said, well said indeed.

Your reply obviously hits to the heart that oldeurope takes isolated instances and attempts to frame them as the norm.  Typical liberal/socialist tactic.....coupled with feeble attempts at "bridge building" or "Kumbaya" as it were.  Then use that improper comparison and relationship to frame the other's beliefs as less than "sane".  I still believe this is probably an internet smoke room keyboard operator...perhaps I am wrong.  We shall see if the visits stop after the election is history. 

Lots of parallels between the BHO rise and Hitler's ascension.  OH wait,....that couldn't happen here could it?  Our social fabric would not allow that as we drift towards the "european" model, eh?  As we become less what we are, and more like "they" were, what is it we shall do?  The skepticism of sheep is to be expected....they blindly follow the path of least resistance to the point where the teeth of tyranny rip them apart.  The lie told forcefully, often enough, and long enough, becomes the truth for the faint of heart and the feeble minded....and we are surrounded by that it in our fellow citizens it seems.  History's lessons forgotten are repeated...Armenia, Germany, Cambodia.....

[oldeurope]

This is also a "firearm-related" forum not a soap box for your next "stone" re: gay marriage,....

That was just one example. There are many others - especially after 9/11. If you are so high on rights as you claim, you should be willing to discuss that, too.
I'm curious: Is that really a realistic szenario for you guys? Your political system - corrupt as it may be like many others - turning so bad, that you need to march to DC to overthrow it? How many % chance it will be necessary in the next 50 years? I would imagine 0%, but then again I#m just a sheep and all that...
You seem to be very fond of statistics -- I hope you know enough about statistics and how they can be altered -- where do you get those .000001 % ?

[Hazcat]

That was just one example. There are many others - especially after 9/11. If you are so high on rights as you claim, you should be willing to discuss that, too.
I'm curious: Is that really a realistic szenario for you guys? Your political system - corrupt as it may be like many others - turning so bad, that you need to march to DC to overthrow it? How many % chance it will be necessary in the next 50 years? I would imagine 0%, but then again I#m just a sheep and all that...
You seem to be very fond of statistics -- I hope you know enough about statistics and how they can be altered -- where do you get those .000001 % ?

No, you do not get to change the subject or drive the agenda.  This is a gun forum specifically interested in the Second Amendment, we will be happy to discuss the specifics of our beliefs in and our reasons for support of RTKBA.

[oldeurope]

Your reply obviously hits to the heart that oldeurope takes isolated instances and attempts to frame them as the norm.  Typical liberal/socialist tactic.....

... I still believe this is probably an internet smoke room keyboard operator...perhaps I am wrong.  We shall see if the visits stop after the election is history. 

Lots of parallels between the BHO rise and Hitler's ascension.  ...

...The lie told forcefully, often enough, and long enough, becomes the truth ....

  History's lessons forgotten are repeated...Armenia, Germany, Cambodia.....

What's your problem with liberalism? You do want a liberal law for guns. But liberalism is bad when it cross your interests?

As I said, don't be paranoid. Do you really think anyone with brains would assume, that he could turn a single person in here to vote for Obama? Thats ridicolous. An interesting question could be: Do guns promote paranoia with some people or does paranoia promote fondness of guns?
I will leave, whenever I can't gain more understanding or if I can't hope to induce understanding (and you are pushing me closer to that point ;-)

Obama and Hitler? You might want to see a doctor...

Hey, you stole that line from from Karl Rove's campaign tactics, didn't ya? ;-)

Believe me I'm not forgetting my history - maybe I learn different things from it.