Glock 21SF versus S&W M&P Full SIze .45 ACP?

[m25operator]

M58, like I said, right now it's not what we want, it's what we need, support every firearm you currently have and not go experimenting, unless you are one of the fortunate few. If you don't have a good pistol, then by all means, get one and the magazines to support it, but it may not be easy. Pre order if you can, but that is not a guarantee. It is close to the vest time.

[Rastus]

M58, like I said, right now it's not what we want, it's what we need, support every firearm you currently have and not go experimenting, unless you are one of the fortunate few. If you don't have a good pistol, then by all means, get one and the magazines to support it, but it may not be easy. Pre order if you can, but that is not a guarantee. It is close to the vest time.

Sage advice.

[MikeO]

Get an M&P45c. I like mine a lot.

[HAWKFISH]

Why don't you buy both and give us a report? .........     ..  both seems like good weapons. I've heard that M&P's in .45 are more accurate than other M&P's in 9mm,.40, etc. So, maybe the M&P wins on that. I know for a fact that I've shot several M&P's vs. several Glocks in 9mm and .40 S&W..and while both are good...Glock wins in the accuarcy department.. not just with me..but with several other experienced shooters too. That's honeslty the only real criticism I have of the M&P. They are almost as good as Glock...in my opinion..generally speaking  .  Honestly, I think either would be good guns. Get whichever you like.. your buying.. 

[Kilroy]

Each pistol will give good service.  The 21SF is taking the place of many G22s in LE service.  Many users of the standard G21 are adding/trading to the 21SF.

The M&P is probably THE best single action pistol in .45 ACP.  It should be more durable and long lived then most all 1911s, and need less work to be completely reliable.  Probably fine right out of the box for most folks, but there is a lot of interest in cleaning up the trigger on the M&P, as seen in the number of gunsmiths offering such services.

[Sponsor]

[MikeO]

The M&P is a DAO (double action only) striker fired action, like the GLock. The SA XD is a single action (SAO?) striker fired action.

Lots of different definitions of all of the above, I'm just using the official fed versions (BATF/NIJ/FBI, etc) as used for import and contract purposes. Pulling the trigger performs the single action of releasing a fully cocked striker (XD), the double action (only) of fully cocking and releasing a partially cocked striker (Glock/M&P).

Some (DHS) skip the whole action definition fandango and just ask for a "consistent trigger pull" for first and subsequent shots, don't care how it's done.

[Kilroy]

The M&P is a DAO (double action only) striker fired action, like the GLock.

Having had an M&P apart on numerous occasions and circumstances, I'd beg to differ.

Even S&W only started calling it that in the last couple years, per their catalog.  The initial release of promotional documentation avoided any mention of such, including the first catalogs.  The 2007 begin the advertising as such, with 2008 being even more so.  The past and present absence of functional cutaways for the M&P beg the question as well.  At their first SHOT promotion, factory staff was not to use the phrase, but didn't correct gun writers and other tire kickers who did.

Physical examination of the mechanism does not support your claim.  Unless we are intent on changing definitions, then it depends on what the meaning of "is" really is.

Is it important?  Not to most shooters and gun owners.  It is important to folks who write bid specifications for purchasing, for risk management evaluations and end users who may be affected by the chicanery of those seeking to fool purchasing/approval entities in government.

[tombogan03884]

Having had an M&P apart on numerous occasions and circumstances, I'd beg to differ.

Even S&W only started calling it that in the last couple years, per their catalog.  The initial release of promotional documentation avoided any mention of such, including the first catalogs.  The 2007 begin the advertising as such, with 2008 being even more so.  The past and present absence of functional cutaways for the M&P beg the question as well.  At their first SHOT promotion, factory staff was not to use the phrase, but didn't correct gun writers and other tire kickers who did.

Physical examination of the mechanism does not support your claim.  Unless we are intent on changing definitions, then it depends on what the meaning of "is" really is.

Is it important?  Not to most shooters and gun owners.  It is important to folks who write bid specifications for purchasing, for risk management evaluations and end users who may be affected by the chicanery of those seeking to fool purchasing/approval entities in government.

Depends on how you define each, we have had several threads (maybe some one can link one ? ) that discussed the issue in great and exacting and excruciating detail.

[MikeO]

I'll differ w your differing.  But I know what ya mean, and why. I can see why they might avoid SA, and like DAO as a label.

I asked S&W LE reps in 2005 and again in 2007 if it was SA or DAO and was told it was DAO as per the reasons I gave above. I'll give 'em a call Monday and see what they say (and why) for 2009. You may be right, but it may not matter as much as it used to?

SA? DA/SA? SAO? DAO? May not matter as much as it used to for contracts, risk mgt, et, as it still does for internet arguing?

Didn't matter as much for the largest US LE pistol contract ever (2004 DHS). I think the DHS approach nicely side steps the whole action definition issue; it's a consistent trigger pull for the first and subsequent shots, and how that is accomplished is irrelevant to them if it meets all the other performance and safety specs:

3.2 Operation:  The pistol shall be an action that provides smooth and consistent trigger pull for the first shot and all consecutive shots.

3.3.2 Trigger Pull: The pistol shall have an average minimum of 5 pounds and maximum of 12 pounds with an optimal average trigger pull of 6—8 pounds min/max.  A pistol’s trigger pull shall not vary by more than +/-0.5lbs from it’s average.  The trigger pull shall be consistent in weight of pull for the first and all subsequent shots.

3.11 Drop Safety and Function:  The pistols shall not accidentally discharge, or sustain a degradation of function or safety, when dropped six (6) times from a height of 48 inches (NIJ Standard) onto a solid slab of concrete with a full magazine and one round in the chamber.  The pistol shall operate safely and require no further action by the operator to function after completing the drop test (i.e. the operator should not have to replace the magazine in the pistol).

I like the M&P action whatever it is/isn't, and any specs I write would reflect that. 

[ericire12]

Here we go  .......