Author Topic: Why Not SERPA?  (Read 20505 times)

Fatman

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Re: Why Not SERPA?
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2008, 08:30:02 PM »
I knew that 2 cents worth would come in handy.  ;)  Now I'm wondering what kind of holster I should use. I have a molded leather holster from Dillon that holds on okay without any snaps, strap, or buttons, but it's for a 3" gun and now I have a 3.5" gun too. I was looking to get another holster and wonder if I should get one with a thumb snap. Some of the Kydex holsters look like they'll hold on tight without a strap.

Make your own!

http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulletin/defensive-carry-holsters-carry-options/39371-make-your-own-kydex-holster.html




Paracordsecrets.com had a really good section on making kydex holsters w/belt clips, iwb mag carriers, etc. But I see the site is on godaddy now...  >:(
Anti: I think some of you gentleman would choose to apply a gun shaped remedy to any problem or potential problem that presented itself? Your reverance (sic) for firearms is maintained with an almost religious zeal. The mind boggles! it really does...

Me: Naw, we just apply a gun-shaped remedy to those extreme life threatening situations that call for it. All the less urgent problems we're willing to discuss.

Rob Pincus

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Re: Why Not SERPA?
« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2008, 07:42:36 PM »
FWIW, every single piece of gear we use (including the pistol) can malfunction and can cause injury if used improperly.  The SERPA Holster "problems" are on the same level as the Glock "KaBoom!" problems.... you can google either and find stories (some first-hand, some not) that will make you think that either piece of equipment would cause at least one death if ever allowed to go through a 2 day pistol course. Of course, that is not the case. I've had hundreds of them go through classes with no issues at all. We've had the occasional loose screw (literally) and one "blocked" button after half a day of rolling in dirt and pea gravel. The one safety issue we had with them (see below) was diagnosed as a severe case of operator error combined with poor supervision and design issues.

While you're googling, you can find my other (maybe even lengthier) explanations of why I not only let SERPAs into my classes ( ::)), but I actually like the holsters. They are intuitive and efficient. If used properly, they don't pose more risk than most other pieces of gear. Proper use includes pulling the gun STRAIGHT UP out of the holster and not canting the grip/slide forward during presentation (entirely inefficient, unless you are shooting to the rear, yet many people with sloppy presentations do it.....). The one design issue I have with the SERPA is the very "speed cut" (or whatever you want to call it) that allows the rear of the top of the slide to be pushed forward during presentation on some (most) SERPA equipped holsters from BHPG.

In the first generation, the SERPA did not play well with the extended take-down lever used with the LaserMax guide rod on Glocks. We had a student fight this problem inappropriately (yanking on the gun repeatedly through several presentation drills) and shoot himself through the holster and his leg at Valhalla a few years ago. I wasn't on the range, but I watched the video. The student (Assistant Instructor for another nationally known school, Very Experienced Shooter, etc, etc) was the cause of the injury, not the gear. I believe that the lack of involvement by the instructor running the range (who clearly saw that the shooter was having trouble) was due to the profile of the shooter and I know that it affected the instructor personally after the fact. He learned a hard lesson and, in my opinion, was at least as responsible as the piece of gear. When I brought the problem to the attention of both Lasermax and BHPG, both companies responded professionally and BHPG has since changed the design to allow these two modifications to work well together.
L
In the interest of full disclosure: No, I am not sponsored by BHPG. I do get T&E samples of their stuff, as I do from several companies. I do use their stuff on my training DVDs, as I do use items (including hoslters) from several companies. They also are clothing sponsors for The Best Defense TV Show and one of the co-hosts (Mike Janich) works for the company. He and several other employees at BHPG are friends of mine, as I have friends at other holster manufacturing companies as well.

Getting to the point of what Fatman said above... No holster is going to solve retention issues if you are not paying attention and if you can't fight in close quarters. The SERPA adds an extra level that does not require much (any, in truth) action that is incongruent with proper drawstroke... that is what makes it intuitive ("works well with what the body does naturally in the context of fight") and efficient. You can find demos of the holster being ripped off the belt loop, but you can find that for many lightweight modern holsters. Read my last blog ("Fighting Through It") here at DRTV for a little info about the problems with presenting from a typical "retention" holsters. Lastly on this topic, and again to Fatman's anecdote, I attended the G.R.A.C.I.E. LE Grappling Instructor's course with a guy from a PD in TN who had just bought the latest/greatest Level 3 retention holster (the kind I describe in class as requiring "Grip, unsnap, push, twist, stomp you foot three times and hope" to present from) and couldn't get his presentations down after a couple days. Within a few minutes I learned how to unholster his pistol from the front with my left hand much easier than either he or I could get it out properly while wearing it!

There are scores of thousands of SERPA holsters in circulation. In the mid 90's when scores of thousands of Glocks entered US Law Enforcement use, every negligent discharge was blamed on the Glock. In time, it became obvious that it wasn't the gun that was responsible. In many cases, it was poor gun-handling habits that people "got away with" during the double action revolver days (whether it was an urban legend or not, many of us could certainly imagine a cop hanging a Glock on the hook on the men's room door!). There have also been other, less elegant and effective, designs that involved the trigger finger to release the firearm, but none have been as successful as the SERPA.

How many guns "kaboomed!' before there were Glock .40's ?  How many people put rounds out negligently during presentation before there were SERPAs?



-RJP

Rastus

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Re: Why Not SERPA?
« Reply #12 on: December 25, 2008, 08:15:10 AM »
The value of professional experience and knowledge cannot be overstated.

Training with real instructors has it's benefits.  It's not a requirement in our world...but it is sage advice.  I've experienced extensive survival and firefighting training for the decade or so I worked offshore, drills, classes, etc...training in anything pays.  I wish I had as much training with weapons and have decided to correct my training deficiency over time. 

The "monkey reflex" can be trained to behave....as one learns basics and has trained the "monkey" out, it's time for another more advanced level of training...such as drills where your primary arm (several levels above basic) is out-of-service and you need to manipulate, fire and reload with your weak arm only. 

Thanks Rob!
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TAB

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Re: Why Not SERPA?
« Reply #13 on: December 25, 2008, 01:56:03 PM »
IMO, if your not willing to get some training from a professional and pratice, you should not carry a gun.

Like many things in life, its not the "hardware, its the software"
I always break all the clay pigeons,  some times its even with lead.

MikeBjerum

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Re: Why Not SERPA?
« Reply #14 on: December 25, 2008, 09:02:46 PM »
IMO, if your not willing to get some training from a professional and pratice, you should not carry a gun.

Like many things in life, its not the "hardware, its the software"

TAB,

Are you saying "should not carry" as a personal choice or by law?
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Re: Why Not SERPA?
« Reply #15 on: Today at 11:28:10 AM »

TAB

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Re: Why Not SERPA?
« Reply #15 on: December 26, 2008, 12:06:52 AM »
TAB,

Are you saying "should not carry" as a personal choice or by law?


I would hope personal choice, but I don't have a prob with mandatory classes before you get/renew your ccw.
I always break all the clay pigeons,  some times its even with lead.

MikeBjerum

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Re: Why Not SERPA?
« Reply #16 on: December 26, 2008, 07:40:31 AM »
I have no problem with laws like alcohol consumption tied to carry.  However, I believe that every time you create a law that requires education, training and application to any level of firearm ownership, possession or usage you start to drive a wedge in Second Amendment Rights.  It may seem like a small thing, but have you ever seen how small a wedge it takes to split a huge block of granite?
If I appear taller than other men it is because I am standing on the shoulders of others.

tombogan03884

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Re: Why Not SERPA?
« Reply #17 on: December 26, 2008, 08:21:08 AM »
TAB, Literacy tests for voting were deemed unconstitutional, and that is NOT a constitutionally guaranteed right, Therefore mandatory training is NOT acceptable.
Read the amendment carefully, it states reasons that are not acceptable for disqualification, race, gender etc. it does NOT say you have a right to vote. Else where in the Constitution it leaves the choice of who can vote to the states.

TAB

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Re: Why Not SERPA?
« Reply #18 on: December 26, 2008, 02:46:47 PM »
You can have some one help you vote, you can't have some one help you carry.


is it really such a bad thing to be educated about the laws of your state and demostrate some practical skill?

Most of our rights we have to pay for...  want to march on washington... fine, but you better get a permit and pay the fees.
I always break all the clay pigeons,  some times its even with lead.

jimbob_texas

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Re: Why Not SERPA?
« Reply #19 on: December 26, 2008, 05:38:53 PM »
I still don't see a ringing endorsement FOR the Serpa.  I see defense of it in this thread, but what problem is it designed to solve, outside of gun retention?  ANY system that creates muscle-memory that has to be consciously countermanded is an inherently flawed system.  The Serpa allegedly forces your trigger finger to press down in a position, that as you draw extends to an unfortunate conclusion: pressure on the trigger before a target is acquired.  Your index finger is pressing the release, and unless you TRAIN yourself to relinquish that pressure, you're destined for a ND.  I've said before that I don't have any personal experience with the system, but then again, I don't plan to.  I'm inclined to err on the side of caution, and go with the anecdotal evidence and the outright ban of the holster on certain ranges.  The argument about kabooms doesn't hold water - that's the difference between physical properties of firearms, loads, and shell casings, not training.  I'm of the opinion that this holster system trains poor finger control habits.  Good finger and muzzle discipline is hard enough to instill in students without a system that MAY encourage poor habits. 

Negligent discharges are caused by only ONE thing: a finger pulling the trigger.  Why exacerbate that?
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