Consider this #3: dealing with post-shoot stress

[Robin]

A growing trend in law enforcement is the recognition that even in clear-cut cases of self-defense, officers can experience post-traumatic stress as a result of having to shoot someone to protect themselves. "Ordinary" civilians are no different.

Aside from any immediate emotional reactions to a shooting, people can experience delayed stress symptoms days, weeks or years later. One officer shot and paralyzed a criminal. Since he was trained about shooting-related stress he thought it odd that he didn't have any problems. Then years later he saw a person in a wheelchair and broke down.

It's important to recognize post-traumatic stress can happen, learn the symptoms and seek counseling if and when it occurs. It may sound like touchy-feely advice but this is not something you should "tough out" alone.

[Rob Pincus]

While attending a conference last year, I had the opportunity to listen to a presentation from a leading psychologist in this area. The point of her presentation was that in the Aftermath of an incident, it is incredibly important not to overemphasize the "disabling" nature of PTSD. She is part of a group researching the very negative effects that such an emphasize has on those, primarily in the military, who are stuck with this label, told there condition is permanent and then spiral downwards, with an uncomfortably high suicide rate being part of the outcome. She suggests confronting the situation and working with those affected to deal with the aftermath and recover.

After the presentation I spoke with her about my interest in preparing someone to minimize this aspect of the aftermath of the use of lethal force and she agreed that the more frequent and realistic the training that precedes the incident, the less traumatic the aftermath will be. The first step, as Robin noted above, is to recognize that this is a real factor. Then: TRAIN REALISTICALLY and as often as possible.

-RJP

[tombogan03884]

I am not a Psychologist, and since my Active service was during Peace time (Cold war under carter ) I am not highly informed about PTSD. That being said I  must disagree with you (your source of info) some what.
As a young man my Dad painted,did 3 dimensional wood carvings, practiced taxidermy and many other things that required intense concentration and patience. At 18 he enlisted in the Marines, being assigned as a machine gunner. at the time the Marines were probably the most highly trained infantry the US had, especially when one considers that ALL infantry NCO's had served during WWII, those conducting training all had served in the Pacific in combat. He served a year in Korea, rising to machine gun section leader during the "outpost battles " of 52-53, awarded the Silver star and Purple heart he was meritoriously promoted to Sergeant. Returning home in 53 he  again took up painting and his other activities,but less often, and with less patience which decreased as time went on until when I was very young he quit them altogether and buried him self in work. As I got older he had a lot of knowledge to pass on, but he was absolutely the WORST teacher I ever saw, He had NO patience left at all, any defect or short coming triggered instant rage. To make a long story shorter, at the age of 75 he has been diagnosed with PTSD. Based on my experiences with him it would seem that this is something that needs to be dealt with over a longer period and intense, realistic training (during maneuvers they used live artillery and mortars, one round fell short and killed several Marines) may help you to survive to HAVE PTSD but is by no means an answer to the problems caused by that type of stress .
On a bit of a tangent, he has also been diagnosed with onset Parkinson's disease, presumably because of the shock of close hits by mortars and artillery, the theory is that concussive shock has affects similar to the head punches that have messed up ALI. This may or may not be worth consideration by people who fire larger calibers in confined spaces, for example a shot gun in a small room.

[Rob Pincus]

First hand stories are always good to hear, Tom. One of the nice things about Scientific Research however, is that it exposes us to a broader view of information without personal feelings/interpretation interfering with information.

It's kinda like that guy in class who tells me that when HE was jumped in a bar one time and he didn't flinch!

Rob's Response: "That's interesting. It is an anomaly though, as the overwhelming majority of people who are surprised by close, rapid movement flinch."

There are always going to be exceptions to the rule and perspectives that are skewed by proximity.

[johncasey4]

I believe that some of this is addressed in Col. Grossman's book  "On Killing."  Tom, as it was still in it's infancy in use, the military had just started using Man shapped silhouette targets about the time your dad got there.  This was a large departure from the classical "bullseye" target that had been previously employed and should have mitigated the affect somewhat.  That doesn't take away from the fact that taking another human life is traumatic.  We aren't really meant to do it and it rarely happens elsewhere (and never with the same frequency) in other species in nature.

  Rob, my question for your doctor friend would be "do you believe that the video game culture, or the no muss no fuss killing things that happen on tv and the movies have had a significant affect on the current numbers of PTSD patients from current wars?"  You know, because kids get used to shooting things on games or seeing actors killed and then seeing them come back in another episode or something and then building an unrealistic understand of the finality of death.

  Like you stated about frequent and realistic training, Grossman also addresses this with his Pre-Combat Veteran theory.  The more people understand what happens when you mortally wound a living thing and the more conditioned they are to the situation, the less likely they are to suffer from the actual shock when it happens in the real world... Of course they would be some really messed up people for their trouble.

[Sponsor]

[tombogan03884]

I believe that some of this is addressed in Col. Grossman's book  "On Killing."  Tom, as it was still in it's infancy in use, the military had just started using Man shapped silhouette targets about the time your dad got there.  This was a large departure from the classical "bullseye" target that had been previously employed and should have mitigated the affect somewhat.  That doesn't take away from the fact that taking another human life is traumatic.  We aren't really meant to do it and it rarely happens elsewhere (and never with the same frequency) in other species in nature.

  Rob, my question for your doctor friend would be "do you believe that the video game culture, or the no muss no fuss killing things that happen on tv and the movies have had a significant affect on the current numbers of PTSD patients from current wars?"  You know, because kids get used to shooting things on games or seeing actors killed and then seeing them come back in another episode or something and then building an unrealistic understand of the finality of death.

  Like you stated about frequent and realistic training, Grossman also addresses this with his Pre-Combat Veteran theory.  The more people understand what happens when you mortally wound a living thing and the more conditioned they are to the situation, the less likely they are to suffer from the actual shock when it happens in the real world... Of course they would be some really messed up people for their trouble.

And could that have some bearing on why we now see things that never happened 30 or 40 years ago such as school shootings ? didn't have malls back then, but we also did not have mass shootings in the work place. Some one might kill his wife's boy friend where ever he found him , but no one went "Postal". Except Charles Whitman, that I can recall.

[johncasey4]

And could that have some bearing on why we now see things that never happened 30 or 40 years ago such as school shootings ? didn't have malls back then, but we also did not have mass shootings in the work place. Some one might kill his wife's boy friend where ever he found him , but no one went "Postal". Except Charles Whitman, that I can recall.

  I think that this may be a function of us being such a repressed society.  You know, can't say what you think because you'll hurt someone's feelings, every mention of a stereotype makes you a racist or a homophobe or a mysoginist etc...  I think that because we are forced to internalize things because of fear of public persecution, we build it all up until we have no room left in the emotional gas tank and then we just explode. 

  Keep in mind that I think that this is different than the idealist who blows up a building in OK City, or a serial killer that is doing what he is doing to quench a particular thirst. 

  I do think that in combination of lack of understanding of death and the above mentioned issues that what you get culminates in the series of events that led up to and included things like Columbine. So yes, I think that there is some of that to blame.  But really it comes down to the choices that we make.  I have never been one to clam up about things that I feel are unjust.  I used to piss off the Chiefs at my last job because they (some, not all) were inept and I let them know, regardless of the consequences.  My mother-in-law on the other hand, never says what is bothering her.  It is comical to watch as she dances on egg shells around some of the other family members so she doesn't hurt their feelings.  She has more stress than anyone I know, all self induced.  Is she likely to go on a rampage?  No, but she may end up having a heart attack.  In my oppinion they are different outcomes from similar causes.  One group are introverts others are extroverts...

[tombogan03884]

  I think that this may be a function of us being such a repressed society.  You know, can't say what you think because you'll hurt someone's feelings, every mention of a stereotype makes you a racist or a homophobe or a mysoginist etc...  I think that because we are forced to internalize things because of fear of public persecution, we build it all up until we have no room left in the emotional gas tank and then we just explode.


 Being new to the forum you probably have not noticed but I try to avoid that keeping it bottled up thing.


Keep in mind that I think that this is different than the idealist who blows up a building in OK City, or a serial killer that is doing what he is doing to quench a particular thirst.


Understood, that's why I left out Oswald, Not sure what set Whitman off.


In my oppinion they are different outcomes from similar causes.  One group are introverts others are extroverts...


If you throw in the whack jobs that just do it for a thrill that seems to cover all the bases.