Consider this #7: talking to LE after a shoot

[tombogan03884]

Good info Full Auto, Robin, The comment about the Jury rules is also a good idea and thank you for prodding Full auto and not getting upset, This information with what Rob posted is the purpose of a forum.

[Rastus]

Robin, it might help to know what region of the country and what locale you are in.  Back where I grew up, heck I know everybody and can say anything without fearing misuse.  I feel that way where I live now, but not in the town where I work because the DA their is anti-gun and will hang your behind with any type of a chance.

One's thoughts are most often reflective of the direct experience of that person and does not necessarily reflect the totality of possibilities.  We're all here to expand our knowledge and proficiency, but to do that we must allow ourselves to consider other possibilities.

Will I tell LE my name, yes.  Will I say I feared for my life, of course.  Will I show them the evidence that will be used to convict the person who attacked me like his weapon and shell casings, without saying.  Will I ask to file a complaint against the person who attacked me, certainly.  Will I start to give them other "helpful" information" to tell the story, not on your life.

Many of the posters here have responded in this and other threads believing they were a help in pointing out that they believe one should consider other possibilities.  Peace to you, and find joy in following your own path.

[fullautovalmet76]

Robin, it might help to know what region of the country and what locale you are in.  Back where I grew up, heck I know everybody and can say anything without fearing misuse.  I feel that way where I live now, but not in the town where I work because the DA their is anti-gun and will hang your behind with any type of a chance.

One's thoughts are most often reflective of the direct experience of that person and does not necessarily reflect the totality of possibilities.  We're all here to expand our knowledge and proficiency, but to do that we must allow ourselves to consider other possibilities.

Will I tell LE my name, yes.  Will I say I feared for my life, of course.  Will I show them the evidence that will be used to convict the person who attacked me like his weapon and shell casings, without saying.  Will I ask to file a complaint against the person who attacked me, certainly.  Will I start to give them other "helpful" information" to tell the story, not on your life.

Many of the posters here have responded in this and other threads believing they were a help in pointing out that they believe one should consider other possibilities.  Peace to you, and find joy in following your own path.

Very well stated, Rastus!

On another, totally unrelated subject:
Are you pulling for the Sooners, or do you really care?

[Rastus]

Very well stated, Rastus!

On another, totally unrelated subject:
Are you pulling for the Sooners, or do you really care?

Hmmm...born in Louisiana, attended the antithesis of LSU....I might except I like Tim Tebow.  They are playing Florida, right?  I really only pay a lot of attention to my boys' high school games.  In Oklahoma I pull more for Tulsa or OSU than OU.  Just something about supporting an organization that has a mascot based on persons who circumvented the rules honest people followed....I just can't get past that.

[CDR]

Will I tell LE my name, yes.  Will I say I feared for my life, of course.  Will I show them the evidence that will be used to convict the person who attacked me like his weapon and shell casings, without saying.  Will I ask to file a complaint against the person who attacked me, certainly.  Will I start to give them other "helpful" information" to tell the story, not on your life.

These are precisely the points Massad Ayoob recommends should you ever find yourself involved with a self defense shooting.  The two additional recommendations are to point out to the police any witnesses that may have been present at the scene that can defend your explanation, and also make it clear to the officer that you are fully aware of the seriousness of the situation and will be very happy to cooperate with all police inquiries and tell your side of the story in 24 hours, after you have had an opportunity to confer with legal counsel.

Very sound reasoning and points that I  have committed to memory.

[Sponsor]

[Rastus]

These are precisely the points Massad Ayoob recommends should you ever find yourself involved with a self defense shooting.  The two additional recommendations are to point out to the police any witnesses that may have been present at the scene that can defend your explanation, and also make it clear to the officer that you are fully aware of the seriousness of the situation and will be very happy to cooperate with all police inquiries and tell your side of the story in 24 hours, after you have had an opportunity to confer with legal counsel.

Very sound reasoning and points that I  have committed to memory.

Roger that.

[Robin]

Will I tell LE my name, yes.  Will I say I feared for my life, of course.  Will I show them the evidence that will be used to convict the person who attacked me like his weapon and shell casings, without saying.  Will I ask to file a complaint against the person who attacked me, certainly.  Will I start to give them other "helpful" information" to tell the story, not on your life.

These are precisely the points Massad Ayoob recommends should you ever find yourself involved with a self defense shooting.

Sorry I didn't respond to this sooner but I kept forgetting to reply until now. I asked Massad this question. Here's what he had to say, with emphasis added by me:
Securing the scene and checking for other casualties is part of standard response. The "I was in fear of my life" formula doesn't come from me. I think explaining the bad guy's attack on you, stating that you'll sign the complaint, and pointing out evidence and witnesses should do it, followed by "you'll have my full cooperation after I've spoken with counsel" when you're asked anything else.

"Checking for other casualties" means giving a description of shots fired and which direction they went--and that includes shots you fired. I think the three things I suggesting telling LE immediately after a shoot and what Massad describes are pretty similar.

[kmitch200]

Sorry I didn't respond to this sooner

Sorry I haven't checked this thread before...been busy lately.

"Checking for other casualties" means giving a description of shots fired and which direction they went--and that includes shots you fired. I think the three things I suggesting telling LE immediately after a shoot and what Massad describes are pretty similar.

While I don't advocate "Say Nothing!" to LE responders, going into 'description of shots fired and which direction they went' seems to me to be opening a can of worms that doesn't need to be that detailed right then.
A simple question interjected by the officer such as "and how far away were you?" could be trouble. 
My first CCW class was given by a PD Detective.
He told of officers that "took cover behind a big tree" which in reality was the diameter of 2 pop cans.
He told us that distance seems compressed under stress. 30 feet seems like 10 ft. You saying that the BG was X feet away and the physical evidence shows different....could be an opening for an unscrupulous DA that needn't be given.

He advocated telling very basic information, 'that's his weapon', 'he came at me', that you feared for your life and you will give a statement after you've had time to consult with counsel and calm down from a life threatening situation.

I would be happy to state "please check on my neighbors, it was very chaotic." That puts the checking on innocents on the front burner, and since they control the scene, it's their baby from there on out.

This may be the same thing you meant/said but I missed it in the 'black & white' of forum speak.

[Kelly Neal]

I am a felony prosecutor so I can offer some commentary on this issue.  My first piece of advice is to find a good criminal defense attorney in your area.  A good resource to find such an attorney is to ask your local cops who they would have represent them in a shooting or who their local Police Union or lodge uses.  Once you've found him or her, have a meeting and discuss the situation with them. Have their card in your wallet so in case you ever do blast somebody you have someone to call.  Three more comments on defense counsel.  First, you want one that has the respect of the local prosecutor.  Some do, many do not.  There are defense counsel whom I have a great deal of respect for, there are others who I don't (and that would be putting it mildly). Since you will be communicating with the cops and your local prosecutor through this person, you want someone they respect. Second, this attorney probably does not advertise on TV.   Third, don't just use your tax, probate, or civil attorney.  They probably know less than you do about criminal law.

There can never be a complete answer to this question given different jurisdictions, social mores, varying politics, etc etc.  What flies in Arizona, may not in New York.  What flies in Marciopa County, Arizona, may not in Coconino County, Arizona. Defensive uses of firearms that I thought were completely justified have been viewed as unjusitfied by other prosecutors - leading to some spirited debates. The dilemma a self-defense shooting suspect faces is trying to give the authorities enough info so that they have some evidence of justififcation and they don't charge you (note I am not talking about arresting you) WITHOUT giving them info which can be used against you.  So most of the communication that you do should be through your attorney as what they say can in no way be used against you.  Note there is no embarrassment about communicating through or contacting a lawyer after a shooting.  Most police do so after shooting someone.

One school of thought is that you should lawyer up immediately (by lawyering up I mean invocating your right to counsel as soon as you come into contact with police).  This is easy to remember but will probably be hard to do as most people will want to explain what has happened.  It certainly keeps you from saying anything stupid as you won't being saying anything.  Of course not saying anything will leave the responding police with little to no idea what happened. 

Another school of thought is to give the police just enough to let them know what's going on and then lawyer up.  This has the advantage of letting them know what's going.  The difficulty will be in shutting up once you start talking. Saying something like "He attacked me/my wife/the school children/etc and I was in fear for my/their/our life or lives. I'm really scared, I want to let you know what happened but I need to contact my attorney first," may be something to consider.

Yet another school of thought is just to let them know what happened.  This will give the cops and prosecutor information more quickly.  But remember you're going to be pretty amped up.  And also remember that what you consider to be justified may not be so by the authorities.  Your statements may or may not match those of other witnesses.  On the other hand, your statements may provide enough info that provides adequate jusitification and the prosecutor will not charge you and you want to avoid getting charged at almost all costs.

I cannot tell you which will work for you in any given situation in any given jurisdiction. 

One final caveat (although it might seem stupidly obvious), I would always communicate with police if there is an active ongoing threat.



 

[rojawe]

How many here have a CCW attorney on their cell phone, if you need one you may not have time to look for one. I have my ccw insurance number on my cell and a independent ccw lawyer also. Hoping I never have to make that call but have the information ready.