Good vs Bad Ammo

[Thanos]

Okay, so I see that Wolf ammo is always mocked. Is it really something that I should not use in my rifle? What is so bad about it? what is better? I am not looking to shoot the cheapest, but the most affordable. I am not going to be in any shooting tournaments with Wolf ammo but I don't want something that explodes in the gun either.

[tombogan03884]

If your rifle is an AK or some other East European type with looser chamber tolerances it should be ok with wolf.
There was a post on another thread about a month ago If I remember correctly it was a quote from either the importer or their representative. The basic jist was that the Wolf steel cases did not expand the way brass cases do so did not seal as well allowing crud into the chamber that basically glued the casing into the chambers of American and West European arms. However, East European arms such as the AK and its variants and clones, have a looser tolerance that leaves clearance for the crap build up as they were designed for steel cased ammo and therefor work fine with Wolf. I have not tried this yet in my AK, but had nothing but trouble with Wolf .223 in a DPMS AR.

[billt]

I'll play the devils advocate here because I don't shoot Wolf in anything. And here is why. Number one, it is false economy. Wolf is no longer cheap, which is the reasoning behind shooting it. Always has been. In some places Wolf actually costs MORE than brass cased, reloadable ammo. Example: The Cabela's near me had steel cased Wolf in .45 ACP for a dollar a box MORE than Mag-Tech which is brass cased, boxer primed, and fully reloadable.

 Second, I believe, like many do, that Wolf is corrosive to some degree, regardless of what it says on the box. Remember, this stuff is made in Russia, a nation that is struggling economically, and trying to make a buck with what they've got, anyway they can. Even if it weren't corrosive to some degree, it is FILTHY! I've seen AR-15's that have digested a couple hundred rounds of this stuff, and the chamber area looks like the bottom of a gas grill after a season of barbecuing.

Lastly, I reload everything, even 7.62 X 39 for my AK-47's. The most valuable component in any cartridge is the brass case, something you don't get with Wolf. In that regard the ammunition is useless to me and anyone else who reloads. Remember, Hussein can ban any and all imported ammunition with an Executive Order, something that many believe he will do in time. Wolf is a one shot deal. To me that is no deal at all. I spend very little more for brass cased, reloadable Sellier & Belliot, or Federal American Eagle, and I can reload the case a half dozen times or more. That is good economics, and I end up with better, cleaner, more accurate ammunition.

An AR-15 is a minimum $1,000.00 rifle today, as are several AK-47 variants. Many are priced well above that. Add on optics, lasers, weapon lights, and you can easily double that figure. To me trying to save a few bucks on ammo by shooting Wolf is like putting cut rate regular gasoline in a new Corvette. False economy across the board. If you want to save money on ammo, take up reloading. Your ammo will be far better, as will your wallet. And your firearm will be eating healthier in the process.   Bill T.

[billt]

This is an example of what can be saved by reloading as opposed to buying cut rate ammunition like Wolf:





With the rising cost of ammunition over the last couple of years, many shooters are considering the alternative of reloading to help cut costs. A lot has been written about how much, if any, money is actually saved when everything is taken into account. This is a cost breakdown for the 2,350 rounds of .223 I finished loading a few months back. A fellow on another forum, who was interested in reloading for his AR-15's had asked me. The brass I used was mixed headstamp. CCI, Remington, Winchester, Lake City, S&B, and a few others I'm forgetting. This brass was obtained from on line sources on the web. I processed it all the same. First I resized and deprimed all of it with a RCBS Small Base Sizing Die. Then I processed all of the primer pockets on my Dillon 600 Super Swage, because some of them were military with crimped primer pockets. I then trimmed all of them to uniform length on my Giraud Powered Case Trimmer. After that they went into the tumbler for several hours and received a polish with ground corn cob and Dillon Rapid Polish added to the media. The final step was to run it through my Dillon and crimp with a Lee Factory Crimp Die. They turned out very good. My total investment in this batch of .223 was:

Brass---------$20.00 total. (It was free, but I paid the shipping).

Powder-------$65.00 for 8 pounds of AA 2230C. (25.0 Gr. per load X 2,350 = 58,750 Gr. 58,750 divided by 7,000 Grains per pound = 8.39 pounds of powder total.)

Primers-------$59.38 for 2,350 primers @ $25.00 per thousand.

Bullets-------$172.21 (2,350 Winchester 55 Gr. FMJBT from Midway)

Boxes--------$52.00 for 100 boxes and trays from Midway. (Actually $26.00 because I used only 47.)

Grand Total = $342.59



By comparison the 1,000 rounds of Remington UMC FMJ in .223 pictured above cost me $371.00 delivered from Natchez, (9 months ago). Reloading can be extremely cost effective but you must find good sources, and buy in bulk. Here are 2 very good sources for brass, bullets, and powder. If you are willing to do a little Internet hunting, brass can be found quite inexpensively. It may require cleaning, and primer crimp removal, but tools to do that can be purchased cheaply, and the amount of time added to the operation as a whole isn't much.

www.gibrass.com

www.patsreloading.com

Now let's make some adjustments, then do the math to find out just how much, if anything, I really saved. Before we do that we need to make one critical adjustment. The $371.00 I paid for the 1,000 rounds of Remington UMC is LONG GONE. Rising fuel prices along with non ferrous metal prices have driven that number to new heights. Especially when you include shipping. If you buy locally, whatever you save in shipping you'll eat in sales tax. So it's pretty much tit for tat. The Glendale, Arizona Cabela's 2 miles from me as of last week, charges $10.00 a box of twenty for Remington UMC .223. Let's roll with that figure. Cabela's is a very large retailer, and while others might stock ammo a little cheaper, Cabela's most always has it in stock which is important because you can't very well buy what a store doesn't have when you need it. So, using Cabela's $10.00 a box of twenty price for Remington UMC 55 Gr. FMJ .223 ammo that comes to:

$500.00 per 1,000 plus 8.1% Arizona sales tax. That's $540.50 per thousand. $540.50 X 2.35 = $1,270.17 for 2,350 rounds.

So as I type this it would cost me $1,270.17 to walk out of Cabela's with the same 2,350 rounds of .223 that cost me a grand total of $342.59.

Now let's do the math.

$1,270.17 - $342.59 = $927.58 Savings over what it would cost me right now to buy the exact same thing 2.5 miles from my home from one of the biggest shooting and hunting retailers in the country.

Now let's talk time.

Resize and deprime all 2,350 cases....... 9 hours. (That's only 4.3 cases a minute, but I'm 55, and not the fastest guy when I reload.)

I tumbled all 2,350 cases over 2 nights while I slept. Adding the time to install plus remove 3 loads, (I use a Dillon FL-2000).......2 hours. Again I'm slow.

Run all 2,350 rounds through my Dillon Progressive.......Approx. 300 rounds per hour. Yeah, I know they say 500 to 600 rounds per hour, but that's not very realistic. You have to include refilling powder measures and primer tubes, plus taking a break once and a while. 2,350 Divided By 300 R.P.H. = 7.83 hours. But let's be generous and call it 9 hours.

My wife has nimble fingers and she enjoys boxing and labeling them for me, but I'll toss in another 3 hours for that as well to keep things on the up and up. So, the grand total in time invested runs:

9 Hours (Resize and deprime)

2 Hours (Putting in and removing from tumbler)

9 Hours (Yanking the handle on the Dillon)

3 Hours (Labeling & Boxing)
.................................................. ...........

23 HOURS TOTAL

$927.58 Savings Divided By 23 Total Hours = $40.33 PER HOUR.

$40.33 per hour is a damn good wage, let alone getting it for doing something you enjoy in the comfort of your own home.

So in conclusion I would say reloading is still worth it, but you must buy your components wisely, and use good equipment. As for "earning" $40.33 per hour doing it. Let's just call that icing on the cake. That cake will get more and more "frosted", as ammo prices just keep getting more and more expensive. And rest assured THEY WILL! Bill T.

[shooter32]

Bill, WOW .

First I wont be shooting any more Wolf ammo anymore. And you just made up my mind on reloading. With prices the way they are it's time to start.

Thanks for the brake down.

[Sponsor]

[Thanos]

The reason I ask is I have 1000 rounds of Wolf 223 and would like to use it up. And I don't mind cleaning the gun, but I want to sight it in and then I am going to get some nicer ammo to fine tune it. I think I will go into reloading after I finish law school.

But, the question is, If i cycle these rounds through my gun, will it hurt it?

[tombogan03884]

No. It will not hurt the gun. you may have feeding/ejection problems and dirt, but no HARM to the gun.

[Thanos]

Bill,

Good breakdown and I am glad that you adjusted your time as paid work. I see too many people who leave that out of the equation and think they are getting a deal when they are not.

I do want to try to start reloading, mainly for the consistancy of the bullets and shooting ballistics. My step father reloads a lot of ammo and has thousands of loaded rounds of various calibers. I won't have the time or space until I finish school though, so that is a few years out.

Do you think Dillon is the best relaoder? I ask because I just got the Cabela's shooting cataloge and was looking at the reloading stuff.

[billt]

Bill,

Do you think Dillon is the best relaoder? I ask because I just got the Cabela's shooting cataloge and was looking at the reloading stuff.

Yes and no. I have 2 Dillon reloaders, a Square Deal set up for .44 Magnum, and an older RL-450 with manual priming and powder drop. Dillon makes quality products, and their "No B.S. warranty" is among the best in the business. With that said, if Dillon reloaders have a weak link, it is their powder measures. They are made of die cast Aluminum. Both the housing itself, as well as the powder bar. The problem is because they are die cast, tolerances are quite loose between the powder bar and the housing itself. This can cause them to bind up with very fine grained ball propellants like H-110. Dillion has replaced the powder measure twice on my Square Deal. They were very good about it, sending me a new unit before I even sent the old one back. I like my older RL-450 which is the first progressive machine Mike Dillon offered via direct marketing. I purchased it back in the early 80's. One of the reasons I like it so much is because of the manual powder drop. I can use my other measures instead of the Dillon when metering these fine powders. I have both a Lyman 55, and a Redding 3-BR that have precision machined, micrometer adjustable, steel drums instead of the sliding Aluminum bar. This works out much better, and causes zero issues.

The Dillon RL-550 is a very good machine, but if I were to replace my RL-450 today I think I would go with the Hornady Lock-N-Load Progressive. The Hornady has a much better powder metering system with a much more solid linkage system that provides better mechanical advantage, plus a precision machined, steel rotating powder drum like I just described. Another thing I like about the Hornady is the turn and lock die retention system they have. It takes only slightly longer to change dies, but they are firmly locked in place when you do. The press itself is stronger because it doesn't require the massive cut out for the sliding tool head. The Hornady also has automatic indexing which is both a plus and a minus. It increases speed, but can be time and labor intensive to clear a jam up. And last the Hornady provides grease-able Zerk Fittings at all bearing points to pressure lubricate with automotive type grease. It's a little feature that is easily overlooked, but I like the attention to detail. It shows a very well thought out design. It also eliminates oil dripping off the press on to the floor. Something the wife appreciates more than I do!

But when all is said and done, both the Dillon and the Hornady are good, solid machines that will produce tens of thousands of rounds of good, quality ammunition at a sensible pace. Most of the decision is personal preference according to the features and reasons I've listed.  Bill T.   

[tombogan03884]

If you like Bill's avatar, you will LOVE "Blue Press" the Dillon news letter.
I have a single stage Lyman press which is fine EXCEPT in the time it takes me to load a hundred rounds, some one with a progressive can load a couple thousand. If I ever up grade I will keep the single stage for load development, but would probably not use it for runs of more than 20 or 40 rounds.