Liberal loon -- Concealed handguns would harm campuses

[ericire12]

http://media.www.utdmercury.com/media/storage/paper691/news/2009/01/26/Opinion/Concealed.Handguns.Would.Harm.Campuses-3596521.shtml

Editor's note: Murray Leaf is Speaker of the Faculty and a professor in the School of Economic, Political and Policy Sciences. He is writing in response to Mercury staff writer Alex Ransom's Jan. 12 opinion piece, "Campus concealed carry law would protect rights, students."

At its Dec. 4 meeting, the University of Texas System Faculty Advisory Council passed a resolution opposing any change in law that would make it easier for anyone to carry weapons on a campus other than authorized police officers. This would of course include concealed handguns. The motion passed unanimously.

First and foremost, weapons of any kind are inconsistent with the nature of a university. A university should be a citadel of reason, of civil and civilized debate in a common search for truth. There should be no threat of violence or of any other sort of coercion.

This also applies to relations between faculty and faculty. Science and scholarship depend on it; we have a strong professional obligation not to take criticism as a personal attack, affront or insult. We are obligated to take it (and of course also to give it) as reflecting an effort to point out objective difficulties and suggest alternative courses of action.

Among faculty, we have a reasonably good reason to expect that these values will be observed. If people cannot stand up to criticism, disagreement and disappointment, they usually do not become faculty in the first place.

We also have many institutional mechanisms such as review by committees and outside experts that reduce the temptation to construe professional criticism as personal attack.

Students, in the nature of the case, represent a much wider range of scholarly commitments and attitudes. Some find college work liberating and exciting. Some find it unpleasant, alien and stressful. Some find the university community on the whole exciting and supportive. Some find it hostile and competitive.

A few, who are not necessarily poor students, take failing an examination, criticism or even the fact of disagreement, as a personal attack or confrontation, and a small portion of these attack the faculty member in turn, either verbally or, sometimes, physically.

This is particularly likely to happen in required courses, and especially those that are particularly difficult - which are also the most difficult courses to teach. This is not hypothetical; we have such confrontations on campus every year.

It also happens that some students are mentally unstable, alienated and bitter for reasons that have nothing to do with educational philosophy or purposes. This number has been increasing in recent decades for two main reasons.

First, the total portion of the college-age population going to college has increased. Second, many more students are graduating high school with dependencies on psychoactive drugs to prevent erratic behavior.

This adds a further element of risk: They may engage in violence not because of academic stress or conflict with faculty, but simply because of alienation from-or perceived conflict with- other students. For various reasons (which the faculty Senate is trying to change) faculty members have no way of knowing who these individuals are until they have a confrontation with them.

Failure to share (and act effectively on) information of this sort was a major contributing factor in the murders at Virginia Tech.

Finally, faculty recognize that in their classrooms they are responsible not only for their own safety but for the safety of the class as a whole.

It should not, therefore, be surprising that to faculty it is perfectly obvious that the possibility that students may be carrying concealed handguns, legally or illegally, should not be added to the mix.

The possibility of legal handguns in most cases would dangerously complicate what should be the automatic response to the sight or suspicion of any weapon; namely, to call the police and evacuate the area in whatever order is most practical.

With specific regard to the argument printed in The Mercury, I should note three points.

First, the NRA is not generally known as being dedicated to public safety, and the group's positions are opposed by many groups that are so dedicated.

Second, the primary threat in classrooms and other academic buildings is violent irrationality, not criminality.

Third, to say that a concealed weapon is "by definition, not visible" is not true. It is often possible to see that a person is carrying one, and the reaction to such an observation should be immediate and uniform in accordance the current campus police recommendation - call the cops.

[tt11758]

A university should be a citadel of reason, of civil and civilized debate in a common search for truth. There should be no threat of violence or of any other sort of coercion.

I would agree that everywhere SHOULD be as the writer describes, and would be, in a perfect world.  Sadly, however, we do not live in a perfect world.  In the REAL world in which we live it is sometimes necessary for one to defend one's self against attack from the predators that walk among us.  Depriving honest citizens, whether they be college students and faculty, or average citizens, while done under the guise of making campuses/streets/whatever safer, has the opposite effect.  If gun bans were effective at crime control, one would expect places like Washington DC and Chicago Illinois to have ZERO violent crime.  Instead they have among the highest rates of violent crime of any cities in this country.  Numerous studies have shown that areas that allow their citizens the tools necessary to defend themselves from predators have the lowest violent crime rates in the country.  Yet year after year knee-jerk politicians roll out new, draconian gun control measures and then slap themselves on the back crowing to their constituents that they have "taken a positive step toward crime control." 

We need to throw a "bullshit flag" on these people EVERY time such a play is taken.  If we don't they're going to legislate us, and our Constitution, out of existence one worthless, ineffective, bullshit-laden law at a time.

[ericire12]

I would agree that everywhere SHOULD be as the writer describes, and would be, in a perfect world.  Sadly, however, we do not live in a perfect world.  In the REAL world in which we live it is sometimes necessary for one to defend one's self against attack from the predators that walk among us.  Depriving honest citizens, whether they be college students and faculty, or average citizens, while done under the guise of making campuses/streets/whatever safer, has the opposite effect.  If gun bans were effective at crime control, one would expect places like Washington DC and Chicago Illinois to have ZERO violent crime.  Instead they have among the highest rates of violent crime of any cities in this country.  Numerous studies have shown that areas that allow their citizens the tools necessary to defend themselves from predators have the lowest violent crime rates in the country.  Yet year after year knee-jerk politicians roll out new, draconian gun control measures and then slap themselves on the back crowing to their constituents that they have "taken a positive step toward crime control." 

We need to throw a "bullshit flag" on these people EVERY time such a play is taken.  If we don't they're going to legislate us, and our Constitution, out of existence one worthless, ineffective, bullshit-laden law at a time.

Ding............... Hit!

[TAB]

I can always tell them people that have no exp in the biz world...

let me break it down for you to simple terms.


There are too kinds of liabilty, those you can't avoid and those you can.

If you let people carry on the grounds and something happends( ND, shooting what ever)   You can be sued and chance are you will lose.

If you don't let people carry on the grounds and something happends( once again ND, shooting what ever)  You can not be sued.


Until that that is stoped, it is extremly logical to limit your liabilty by restricting CCW.   You don't have to like it, but that is the way it is.

I dare you to find 1 liabilty lawyer that will sign  a letter saying you won't be sued... just 1.   

Just to cut off the "but, Vtech..."   they are being sued for not acting, not for what the crazy guy did.

[ericire12]

I can always tell them people that have no exp in the biz world...

let me break it down for you to simple terms.


There are too kinds of liabilty, those you can't avoid and those you can.

If you let people carry on the grounds and something happends( ND, shooting what ever)   You can be sued and chance are you will lose.

If you don't let people carry on the grounds and something happends( once again ND, shooting what ever)  You can not be sued.


Until that that is stoped, it is extremly logical to limit your liabilty by restricting CCW.   You don't have to like it, but that is the way it is.

I dare you to find 1 liabilty lawyer that will sign  a letter saying you won't be sued... just 1.  

Just to cut off the "but, Vtech..."   they are being sued for not acting, not for what the crazy guy did.

Guess we should also ban cars on college campus too..... and alcohol...... and bunk beds...... and football games...... and all intermural sports......... and.......



BTW.... BUT VTECH!   

TAB, you always go on and on about limiting liability for the property owner, but you always fail to reference any actual cases of shootings where the place gets sued because a third party brought a gun into the establishment..... Maybe I missed the Carl's Jr lawsuit..... can you help me out?



........... look up sovereign immunity, it makes VTech 100% not liable

[Sponsor]

[TAB]

most schools do ban booze and many restrict cars.    Vtech is liable for the way thier police handled things, they are not liable for the guy shooting people.

[Thanos]

Finally, faculty recognize that in their classrooms they are responsible not only for their own safety but for the safety of the class as a whole.

Good, I was worried for a minute there that there wasn't anyone on campus to protect me if a mad gunman goes running around. Good thing the faculty is there to keep me safe. Although, curiosity makes me ask...how are they going to do that? Besides, I think I am a better judge of what safety means, They are teachers and admin workers, I used to be in the military.

[Rob10ring]

A "citadel of reason", but without reason at all. What a clown.

[tombogan03884]

 Most of the comments from the Kids were pro gun, but 3 "Professors" weighed in, so I set them straight.
My Reply
[QUOTE id="6a1deaee-54ed-468a-aecf-3ac2e7450b5c"]I would add to Dr. Mullens commentary- not ONE of the pistol-fondling proponents of carrying fireatms on campus can point to a single instance- verified, anecdotal, or even Drudge- of a weapon carrying person (other than law enforcement) thwarting a single criminal act.

Not.


One.


..and to counter the inevitible sophmoric 'but thatz cuz the kriminalz know therz guns' rant:

correlation is not causality.[/QUOTE]

Pearl Mississippi High School shooting rampage was stopped by the Principle going to his truck parked off campus, retrieving his legal hand gun and confronting the shooter.
A law school, I believe it was Ball State, Again, shooter was confronted by 2 LEGALLY armed STUDENTS and held for police.
How about Trolley Park Mall, where an off duty Police officer ending a shooting rampage with the pistol he was carrying IN SPITE of the "No Guns" (good hunting ) signs, or the Church shooting where a legally armed LADY killed the shooter who had several loaded magazines.
If you bothered to do research, instead of spouting "feel good" nonsense you would be aware that with the terrorism problem in Israel, where half the population over 18 are openly carrying automatic weapons, ( not look alike, so called "Assault weapons" but REAL machine guns ) the average death count in a mass shooting incident is 3 usually including the shooter.
Murder, Rape, Robbery, Assault, have all been against the law since the days of Hammurabi, How, pray tell, do you think adding to the current 20,000 gun laws just in this country is going to make them more illegal. In case it wasn't covered in your post graduate work I have a tip for you, crooks don't care about your laws. That's why they are called "lawbreakers" it's in their job description.
I carry a pistol every day. I have been certified as a law abiding good citizen by the FBI, can you say the same ?
You denizens of academia would scream bloody murder if the 1st amendment were as hemmed in and infringed as the 2nd, which by the way preserves ALL the others.
You would be facing criminal charges if you used such derogatory language against  Blacks, Gays or Women. And I for one find your "hate speech" despicable.
Any one interested in THE TRUTH can find it at www.gunfacts.info, this fact book doesn't use information from NRA which could be considered biased, but goes straight to the sources such as Dept. of Justice and the CDC. It is meant to be printed, read, and passed around.
For more info on Concealed Carry on Campus go to www.concealedcampus.org.
Don't beleive the Brady campaign, they lie then use themselves for sources to verify their lies. Know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.


As for TAB, They are probably going to get the CRAP sued out of them now that that girl got her head cut off in the Cafeteria, it indicates an unaddressed history of problems aggravated by their refusal to let potential victims protect themselves, and their total failure to implement MEANINGFUL safety measures.

[tombogan03884]

most schools do ban booze and many restrict cars.    Vtech is liable for the way thier police handled things, they are not liable for the guy shooting people.

They can't even keep underage kids from drinking in their dorms, how are they going to stop some one bent on murder, rape (which has reached epidemic proportions) robbery or assault. Those who would prohibit CCW carriers from carrying ANY WHERE, are simply hiding from reality.