Surprise ?

[johncasey4]

I was talking to a guy the other day who is in the planning stages of a shoot-house. He wants to add pneumatic and spring loaded pop-up and hidden targets of both BG's and innocent bystanders, with recorded messages, bright lights, or simulated gunfire for the interaction effect. They would be instructor controlled with a remote control and hidden behind doors, beds, dressers, etc. Random activation or no activation during runs could be controlled by the RO/instructor. No warm-ups or pre-run walk-through's either.

For example: You pie and clear a room and as you advance into the middle of it, a BG pops out of a closet with a flashlight and weapon.

Nothing can really totally prepare you for what you MAY or MAY NOT encounter in any given situation.
All we can do is prepare as well as we can mentally and physically with the equipment we have.

I'm definitely interested in opinions. Should be a good thread.

So in reality this training venue already exists... in body if not in spirit.  What you have described is what USED to be The Valhalla Training Center and is now the Valhalla Shooting Club. 

  As a Tactical guy, this place was heaven for me to train at.  As previously mentioned, we would work fundamentals on the flat range and then head into the 360 degree live fire mazes where targets pop out (some times shoot sometimes not), targets were 3d and lifelike and responded to good shots by falling down. 

To the point of the thread, we ran high level simulations that went anywhere from "gimme your wallet" to the drunk guy in the wrong house and even to a complete no threat at all situation.  Yes, it is hard to get people's heads out of the fact that they are at a training center, but as Rob said, even when they know "something" is going to happen, we managed to not let them know the what, when, how or by who it was going to happen.  The bottom line is that we made it as realistic as we could while maintaining some semblance of safety.  Sometimes "safety" (especially for the instructors) was lessened to drive home a very important point.  When we told students not to pull punches we meant it, and it happened that some times we would get pretty banged up (being pistol whipped 15 or so times by a guy twice your size isn't fun regardless of the safety gear you are wearing) but it was important for people to react and then respond as close to real time as was possible.  This added more value to the training than anything I have ever participated in, and I would recommend it to everyone.

[Rob Pincus]

The venues and gadgets (training tools, reactive targets, etc) all help to make training more realistic... but the fact is that it comes down to the instructors. I just visited a site this week that has some incredible potential for realistic training scenarios that we are going to capitalize on in the spring for a military unit. I was at another venue last year that, while it looks great on paper, actually is very poorly designed for reality based training because it is "too real" (lots of glass, metal, no live fire, etc.. great for pictures/video work though....).

The building that was Valhalla itself went through many changes since it was first built... some to increase "gadgetry" and some to reduce it. Most to make it safer and more efficient.

The mindset of the student is what we are trying to affect.... that is best done with the mind of the instructor.

-RJP

[fullautovalmet76]

The mindset of the student is what we are trying to affect.... that is best done with the mind of the instructor.

Is that like what they do in the martial arts? I know nothing about MA other than what I have seen on television.

It seems to me the mental preparation is the foundation for the whole thing. I think what one thinks of themselves is important. If I believe that I have the capability to adapt and overcome, and that is reinforced with consistent, realistic training/practice/simulations, I should be somewhat prepared to handle the a real challenge. I may be off on this one, but that is what comes to mind....

[m25operator]

FA, I don't want to go too far here, but you are definitely on the right track, success in anything is usually about superior mental attitude, now that is simple, but profound. In self defense or survival, there is the inner monkey that needs to come out, it says it's cold and I'm going to freeze to death unless I find shelter, I need to eat to make it another day or hour, it has no politics, or ambition other than to survive. It has no caution, only survival. We have detour signs as humans, this is good for you, this is bad, the sky is falling etc... But, when push comes to shove, fight like hell, training or no, fight, fight, fight, to survive another day. Training helps and just like practice, really good training helps more. Developing a superior mental attitude is key in all venues, from ( cliche ) main street to wall street, if you think you can, you have a better chance, than I can't.  " Can't never could " as my old pappy used to tell me.

I stand back now, for others to comment.

[Rob Pincus]

You guys are both on good tracks in terms of the big picture.... I was using that line specifically in terms of trying to create "surprises" in training. "Surprise" doesn't necessarily require gadgets. I have a standard "surprise" aspect to square range training that usually takes place within the first couple of hours of a CFS course for any level of student that we then debrief so that the students can learn from. My point was that this type of training only requires a creative approach to realistic training and an ability to explain it to the student.

[Sponsor]

[DonWorsham]

I have a standard "surprise" aspect to square range training that usually takes place within the first couple of hours of a CFS course for any level of student that we then debrief so that the students can learn from.

This is good to hear. What I hope to get most from the course is to identify where I am lacking, what I'm doing that I might could do better another way.

[PegLeg45]

Is that like what they do in the martial arts? I know nothing about MA other than what I have seen on television.

It seems to me the mental preparation is the foundation for the whole thing. I think what one thinks of themselves is important. If I believe that I have the capability to adapt and overcome, and that is reinforced with consistent, realistic training/practice/simulations, I should be somewhat prepared to handle the a real challenge. I may be off on this one, but that is what comes to mind....

FA, I don't want to go too far here, but you are definitely on the right track, success in anything is usually about superior mental attitude, now that is simple, but profound. In self defense or survival, there is the inner monkey that needs to come out, it says it's cold and I'm going to freeze to death unless I find shelter, I need to eat to make it another day or hour, it has no politics, or ambition other than to survive. It has no caution, only survival. We have detour signs as humans, this is good for you, this is bad, the sky is falling etc... But, when push comes to shove, fight like hell, training or no, fight, fight, fight, to survive another day. Training helps and just like practice, really good training helps more. Developing a superior mental attitude is key in all venues, from ( cliche ) main street to wall street, if you think you can, you have a better chance, than I can't.  " Can't never could " as my old pappy used to tell me.

I stand back now, for others to comment.

I think you both hit on the head. The survival instinct is stronger in some people than it is in others. That is why some people survive extreme circumstances, against long odds, while others don't survive seemingly benign encounters.
Mental preparation in any area has to be the foundation that everything else builds on. All the training in the world without the mental fortitude to follow through in an encounter could render said training into a moot point, I would think. And not just where self defense is concerned.
Rob makes a good point regarding instructors. A good instructor must be able to recognize a students weaknesses and positively reinforce in those areas. I would think that applies to the mindset as well as the physical part.

[johncasey4]

m25,

The thing that (realistic) training gives us that is most important is the ability to recognize a situation when it is unfolding, recognize that we have seen it before (or something close) and shorten the amount of information that we have to go through to find the answer/ resolution.  What this also does is give us more time to carry out the solution rather than have to think about what may or may not work.

I do agree that to a certain extent our basist animal instincts will take over, especially at the beggining of the situation.  That may be enough to get through the initial attack, but what are we going to do after the surprise.  I think that our training (the world in general) fail to recognize the immediate and natural reaction that will occur and they jump straight to the magic horse stance to windmill of death move...

[m25operator]

JohnCasey4, I appreciate your comments, I was commenting on Full Auto's mental preparation question, so limited my comment to that, and of course quality training. Michael Bane has often referred to that mental rollodex, of index cards that have our learned information on, to sort through when something happens. If you see someone drop on the floor and you have EMT, or any medical training, you might respond and check for heart beat, breathing, choking and apply what you know till the experts get there, if you have no training ( therefore no index card of information ), then at least I hope that person will call 911. If you see someone quartering you on the street, the flags should go up, and you counter to see if that person is actually going for you, or your just on intersecting paths. ( I have had that happen and it was a 2 man effort, no shots fired, they just went away. ) I think this is what your addressing when you say, " shorten the amount of information we have to go through to find the to find the answer/resolution" The more you have in your mental rollodex, the faster you assess a situation based on experiences, taught, learned or personally experienced.

The common thread through all the shows and the comments is AWARENESS, and Michael B, Rob P, and Michael J, are doing a great job on that.  That is the key, in our area of the country and probably in yours, situations arise out of predators finding what we call here " Fat, dumb and happy people " cell phone in 1 ear, IPOD in the other, living large and not paying attention to their surroundings. Easy pickens. Kids getting run over because they are texting while walking out onto the street, I have not seen anybody runover, but have seen them just walking across an intersection with nothing more on their mind, but the little screen on the cellphone, completely oblivious, to their surroundings.

The inner monkey thing, is something that Michael B has touched on several times in his podcasts, and it go's hand in hand with Jeff Coopers philosophy, to para phrase, in a life and death situation, you need to get focused, and go to work, base animal instinct does not allow for 2 dimensional thinking, except for the predator or human being, prey animals are not complicated, their main defense is awareness and escape, run fast and find the hole, or outrun your neighbor, so he gets caught instead of you. Humans and predators can think 2 or 3 dimensionally, eg...  if I attack here, and I fail, my brother can get them when they come out here. On the reverse, We can think as prey, being human, if I run here, get behind this, use it for cover, I can escape or defend, and call the laws. But the mental attitude has to be, DO THIS, DO THIS NOW, I'm completely in tune with avoidance, I have nothing to prove other than I got home safe. If you have read Uncle Jeff's principles of self defense, to para phrase again, " when someone breaks into your house or tries to hurt you, don't be scared, get mad, " how dare you break into my house or threaten me and my family " that is an attitude that can carry you better, than Oh My God, someones in the house!!

I tend to be long winded on such things, so I indulge you all. Again further comment is welcomed.

[tombogan03884]

". Kids getting run over because they are texting while walking out onto the street, I have not seen anybody runover, but have seen them just walking across an intersection with nothing more on their mind, but the little screen on the cellphone, completely oblivious, to their surroundings."
The idiots drive that way too. My life is in more danger from A holes driving with cell phones than all the felons in Belknap county