Ammunition Selection: Heavy and Slow or Light and Fast

[Hazcat]

For PD I have always preferred a big, slow round.  That is way the .45 acp is so effective.  The only thing is penetration and I will (for now) believe your 9mm test so I would add that to the .44spl and .45acp and colt rounds that work great for PD.

(heck, just look at the damage those old muzzle loaders did in the Civil War!)

[MAUSERMAN]

10mm

[Kid Shelleen]

One of the most effective street rounds (with lots of history and case studies) is reportedly the 125 gr in 357 Mag and the 125 gr 357 Sig duplicates that Mag performance and not surprisingly, has one of the highest one shot incapacitance percentages.

Road Hog is right on the money.

Real life experience at a Level 1 Trauma Center in Dallas, where we saw lots of gun shot wounds, led to one conclusion.The .357 Magnum is the ultimate handgun round with the optimal blend of speed, size, penetration and energy transfer for a 1 shot stop. Every other argument about heavy and slow vs light and fast is moot. I know that this thread started out asking about which .45 .acp round to use. I simply contend that if you want the best self defense round, get a .357 Magnum.

Ask any big city cop that has seen the results of gun shot wounds, of varying calibers, and see what they have to say on the subject. If they have had a long career and they or their colleagues have used their weapons in the line of duty, ask them about the effectiveness of the varying calibers that they and their colleagues have fired. There seem to be several current and ex law enforcement personnel on the forum. I would love to hear their real world experience. Fortunately most cops that I have met have never had to shoot anyone, but they do see gunshot wounds and the results. I got to know many Dallas cops in the ER, if they had to have one caliber as a "man stopper" they invariably will pick the .357 Magnum.

Regardless of any scientific studies, ballistic gel comparrisons or milk jugs penetrated, I'll take real world examples every time.

I also agree with everyone on this thread about shot placement. I have seen lethal .22 and .25 caliber wounds. Not exactly legendary powerhouses, but every bit as deadly with good shot placement.

Finally, regardless of how much "one shot stopping power" that you have, shoot until the threat is eliminated.

Just my personal thoughts, but I'll bet that I have seen more actual handgun wounds than most folks on the forum and than most folks in general including the military and law enforcement folks. During my time in Dallas there were about 2000 officers on the force. They certainly weren't all present for every shooting. On the other hand our Emergency Department saw close to half of all shooting victims in the city. Level 1 Trauma Centers get the major trauma. There are only 2 Level 1s in Dallas and at my last count only 13 in the entire state of Texas (4 of which I believe are military). I'd love to hear from TABs girlfriend about her ER experience in California.

[Ichiban]

I don't know if Terminal Ballistics as Viewed in a Morgue has been referenced yet but it is an interesting read from a thread on a different site. 

As with anything on the internet - Caveat Emptor

http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal%20Ballistics%20as%20viewed%20in%20a%20morgue.htm

[Kid Shelleen]

Ichiban,

Thanks for the link. Most of these guys are youngsters and have seen very few .357 wounds. When they did they all agreed with it's legendary manstopper reputation.

My Dallas ER days were from 1980 to 1987. Wheel guns were still very popular.

See the comment from the morgue kids:   Ok, let's try to answer a few more questions that have popped up since I got back. Again, as has been seconded here, the .357 has a well-deserved reputation as a man stopper, and it seems to be regardless of what load is used from what I've seen. Unfortunately, we seldom get them anymore, but when we do it just confirms what others have said about its stopping power. Ah, if only all handgun calibers were this effective...

[Sponsor]

[Jackel]

depends on the situation

large (for me) is for short range and big holes

where the .223 is for more precise shooting while it still tumbles around and causes massive internal damage

[tombogan03884]

Ichiban,

Thanks for the link. Most of these guys are youngsters and have seen very few .357 wounds. When they did they all agreed with it's legendary manstopper reputation.

My Dallas ER days were from 1980 to 1987. Wheel guns were still very popular.

See the comment from the morgue kids:   Ok, let's try to answer a few more questions that have popped up since I got back. Again, as has been seconded here, the .357 has a well-deserved reputation as a man stopper, and it seems to be regardless of what load is used from what I've seen. Unfortunately, we seldom get them anymore, but when we do it just confirms what others have said about its stopping power. Ah, if only all handgun calibers were this effective...

Was Allan Jones at the Dallas Crime lab when you were in Dallas ? would you have run into him, he was their bullet match guy.

[Michael Bane]

First, an awesome top 'o the gat to twyacht to getting quotes from both Wild Bill and John Farnam in the same post!

I've been carrying a 9mm for years now, usually loaded with Corbon screamers. Maybe I'm getting old, or maybe times are getting wierder, but the .45 in the semi and .44 Special in the wheel gun are looking better and better to me. On my last road trip, I carried a .44 Special revolver most of the time loaded with 200-gr SilverTips. I have always carried 230-gr when I carried .45s. Corbon has a 230-gr JHP +P, but it's pretty snappy to shoot.

All in all, I'm leaning toward going back to the .45 across the board...an FNP45 replacing the SIG226 as the bedside gun; maybe a Para Carry LDA for daily carry replacing the Carry 9. It'll be a big step for me, and I'm going to need some more trigger time with the guns before I make a final decision.

Michael B

[ericire12]

I don't know if Terminal Ballistics as Viewed in a Morgue has been referenced yet but it is an interesting read from a thread on a different site.  

As with anything on the internet - Caveat Emptor

http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal%20Ballistics%20as%20viewed%20in%20a%20morgue.htm

Ichiban,

Thanks for the link. Most of these guys are youngsters and have seen very few .357 wounds. When they did they all agreed with it's legendary manstopper reputation.

My Dallas ER days were from 1980 to 1987. Wheel guns were still very popular.

See the comment from the morgue kids:   Ok, let's try to answer a few more questions that have popped up since I got back. Again, as has been seconded here, the .357 has a well-deserved reputation as a man stopper, and it seems to be regardless of what load is used from what I've seen. Unfortunately, we seldom get them anymore, but when we do it just confirms what others have said about its stopping power. Ah, if only all handgun calibers were this effective...

http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=6801.0  

[ericire12]

First, an awesome top 'o the gat to twyacht to getting quotes from both Wild Bill and John Farnam in the same post!

I've been carrying a 9mm for years now, usually loaded with Corbon screamers. Maybe I'm getting old, or maybe times are getting wierder, but the .45 in the semi and .44 Special in the wheel gun are looking better and better to me. On my last road trip, I carried a .44 Special revolver most of the time loaded with 200-gr SilverTips. I have always carried 230-gr when I carried .45s. Corbon has a 230-gr JHP +P, but it's pretty snappy to shoot.

All in all, I'm leaning toward going back to the .45 across the board...an FNP45 replacing the SIG226 as the bedside gun; maybe a Para Carry LDA for daily carry replacing the Carry 9. It'll be a big step for me, and I'm going to need some more trigger time with the guns before I make a final decision.

Michael B

I would like to officially go on record as offering to provide a good home to all those 9mm guns that Michael Bane no longer wants around. PM me for my FFL's shipping address, Michael.