Weapons Policies at Work

[ericire12]

"Its deja vu all over again."

[Hobbes4Pres]

Good discussion so far.

I agree with TAB with what the issues are.  Regardless of personal beliefs of whether you should or should not bring your gun to work, what is a policy that works.  I'll be honest, I'm part of senior management and will thus have a large influence on the policy if one is enacted, and at this point I don't see not putting one in place an option.  We have had a case in the past where one employee was clearly off balance.  If the policy was blanket "ok for guns" or was silent, and this individual brought one in and started playing and fidgeting with it, how would you ask them to remove it if you don't have a policy against weapons?  How do you have a reasonable policy, that isn't overly complicated, and address the liability insurance?  How can you have a policy that supports you when you need to address an issue, without having the policy simply ban everyone.  Separate issue ... if you do have that situation ... who wants to go unarmed to tell the employee to put it away?  If you are a small company as we are, you don't have a security force to call.

The debate on this thread is the same debate we are having at the company.  TAB made a comment that while you are on the clock the employer is liable for your actions.  To some extent I agree, but to me that only applies if the employee is acting upon the company's orders.  Let's say that while at work, the employee while sitting in their cubicle starts picking up the phone and making threatening phone calls to their ex who has a restraining order.  Is the company liable for not monitoring the phone conversations or for providing the phone?  One would think not.  However, the question of firearms seems to through out the basic common sense approach to looking at the situation.

So I'm trying to see who has a good policy.  It seems to me there is either a complete ban (with possible allowance in vehicle) or there is no policy at all.  Does anyone work or have heard of an alternate policy?  I've spent lots of time Googling and haven't come up with much.

While it may require extra hoops, are there some type of certification approaches that could work?  What about an employee liability agreement that must be filled out, along with conditions that have to be met such as agreement on conditions of carry, good performance, appropriate job function (not MRI tech), or even carrying of a personal umbrella policy?

There has to be an acceptable way that everyone's needs can be met.  Again the base assumption is that the company owner(s) and executive management have to at least be neutral to the issues of guns.  If they are a large donor to the Brady campaign I think it is a non-starter.

[ericire12]

To get back on topic and off the bickering partisan rhetoric that we have been through so many times before...... Like I stated earlier, I think the best policy is to simply defer to your state's CCW laws.

I dont think that you should get into company certifications or conditions that need to be met (unless you are in a business that does security or armored car work or something like that). This may open you up to accepting plausible liability and make you look like you have hand selected and approved people as being capable of handling a gun in the workplace....... or it may make you look like you were providing a defacto "security team", which may become a liability one day if they are ever needed to act in such a manor.

I think that it is best to neither encourage/approve people to bring guns to work or discourage those who can legally carry a concealed firearm from doing so. Let your state CCW laws dictate who can and can not carry a gun. This may also keep you out of a civil law suit if there is a shooting at your business and a CCW permit holder died because you denied them the right to carry simply because of "company policy". 

[m25operator]

I carry everyday at my office, concealed, and I have 2 more firearms in my tool box, 1 pistol and 1 rifle, key employee's know where they are. Our company policy is " no unregistered firearms allowed " now that is the owners of the business that made it, and they don't know unregistered from non licensed or licensed to carry, they put this exclusion in for me, as they know my background, but I did not correct them on their policy. If I had a policy that I wrote, it would basically copy state law, about concealment, and I would add a provision about brandishing. I do gunsmith work, and have clients bring guns to my place of business, when they do, we go to a quiet room and all safety rules apply, before they bring the gun out from whatever sack they brought it in.  I do not want to alarm other employees although they know what I do on the side.  I do think it would be good to have an agreement of compliance that if if you are allowed to bring a firearm, you will follow company policy and it is non negotiable, if your firearm becomes public for any reason, you could lose your privilege, this would include talking to your co workers and managers, before presenting it, and in my situation, it should never be shown in the presence of clients, unless like me, my clients also like firearms, and you retreat to a non public room to play show and tell, but with all safety rules applied.

Firearm safety is paramount, and should be, rules should be written and adhered to, muzzle direction, must be safe, even with an unloaded firearm, someone has to decide, " what direction is safe " that is always rule #1, if all other rules fail, someone is embarrassed, but no one is hurt. So decide what is a safe direction, and maybe there is not one, so in that instance, the firearm stays put, no presentation unless it is life or death. I would probably allow cleaning in a workstation, my business is automotive, but with all the preceding rules applying, if during work hours and a client might walk in, no dice.

I am lucky to be in the situation that I'm in.

[sanjuancb]

Good discussion so far.

 We have had a case in the past where one employee was clearly off balance.  If the policy was blanket "ok for guns" or was silent, and this individual brought one in and started playing and fidgeting with it, how would you ask them to remove it if you don't have a policy against weapons?

In Oklahoma, that would clearly be "brandishing" and he would be arrested for such...

[Sponsor]

[tombogan03884]

I agree with M25, I would allow with the stipulation that "concealed" means "CONCEALED".

"I would make the rule read "DISPLAY of weapons is grounds for termination with or without CCW permit." That way permit holders who carry are not impeded, but those who are irresponsible or threatening can be fired on the spot ."



In my first post I mentioned that I had worked at a place where I carried with my Supervisors knowledge, I will expand on that example here.
 The Company was located in 1/2 of a building that also included a ware house , my Supervisor was told to keep an eye on it as there had previously been thefts from the warehouse. I was working 2nd shift operating a machine in an area separated from the rest of the shop and walking home at 1AM, (that is why I was carrying) one night the Supervisor heard something in the warehouse and asked me to go over there with him, that was the only time he actually SAW my pistol. While we didn't find anything disturbed he later commented that he was glad I had it. A day or so later the Co. owner asked me about it, if I had a permit, did anyone else know I carried, (he was Pres. of the local Sporting Clays Club ) when I told him I did have a permit, did not think any one else was aware I carried, and explained about walking home, his only comment was "OK, lets keep it that way."

[MikeBjerum]

How bad do you want to work for someone that disagrees with your basic beliefs and Rights?  I know times are tough, and sometimes it is good just to have a job.  However, how much are you willing to comprimise for a paycheck?

On my list of things I believe in my Second Amendment Rights are a little way down from the top.  Things I expect my employers to work with me on are my Christian beliefs, my need to support and care for my family, my needing to take care of myself, and my Constitutional Rights.  If I am not allowed to take care of these basic needs I am not able to be the best I can be for my employer.  If they won't let me be me for the items above, I can't be me for the job.

I am at this business rather than my previous one because I was expected to put the job as number one instead of a neck and neck race for #4.  If I can't serve my God and care for my family I don't have a need for the job ... period.  Don't get me wrong, I can't afford not to work for even a day, but I will worry about that bridge if I need to cross it.

[Pathfinder]

We covered a lot of this ground last year, summer I believe. Here's my $.02 for gas to throw on the fire . . . .

The ND state constitution - paragraph 1 or Section 1 of Article 1 recognizes the right of the citizens to keep and bear arms. Here's the literal text:

Section 1. All individuals are by nature equally free and independent and have certain
inalienable rights, among which are those of enjoying and defending life and liberty; acquiring,
possessing and protecting property and reputation; pursuing and obtaining safety and happiness;
and to keep and bear arms for the defense of their person, family, property, and the state, and for
lawful hunting, recreational, and other lawful purposes, which shall not be infringed.

As I read it, and with the concept of preemption, state law trumps company policy, and the state Constitution trumps state law. I have a CCW (lawful purpose) and therefore the company would be directly violating my rights as enumerated in the Constitution to fire me for having a concealed weapon at work.

Your state may vary . . . .

[TAB]

We covered a lot of this ground last year, summer I believe. Here's my $.02 for gas to throw on the fire . . . .

The ND state constitution - paragraph 1 or Section 1 of Article 1 recognizes the right of the citizens to keep and bear arms. Here's the literal text:

Section 1. All individuals are by nature equally free and independent and have certain
inalienable rights, among which are those of enjoying and defending life and liberty; acquiring,
possessing and protecting property and reputation; pursuing and obtaining safety and happiness;
and to keep and bear arms for the defense of their person, family, property, and the state, and for
lawful hunting, recreational, and other lawful purposes, which shall not be infringed.

As I read it, and with the concept of preemption, state law trumps company policy, and the state Constitution trumps state law. I have a CCW (lawful purpose) and therefore the company would be directly violating my rights as enumerated in the Constitution to fire me for having a concealed weapon at work.

Your state may vary . . . .

has anyone ever taken that to court and won?  if yes strickly on the grounds of the state cons or for something else?

[tombogan03884]

has anyone ever taken that to court and won?  if yes strickly on the grounds of the state cons or for something else?

Yes Ok. and Ga.