Hoarding

[UrsaMajor]

Hello Michael,

First off, let me say that I have listened to and enjoyed all of your podcasts.
I have been listening for about a year now, and I went back and downloaded
and listened to each one since the very beginning.

As much as I have enjoyed the podcasts though, I feel I have to take issue with
the advice you gave this past week regarding buying ammo. You stated that if
someone were to find ammunition in stock at al big box store, to buy them out.
I have a real problem with this mentality. I reload, and lately have been completely
unable to obtain primers. I feel that an attitude of get all you can and to hell with
everybody else is what has led to all of the shortages in ammo and components we
are seeing right now. Ammo and components do nobody any good stockpiled in
someones basement. Instead of being able to enjoy the sport, or even to share it
with new shooters, many of us are having to curtail their shooting.

Hoarding is not only greedy and antisocial, it hurts our sport.
Take what you need and leave some for others. We will all benefit.

UM

[Pathfinder]

UM

Welcome to the site and a very good early post.

On the issue of hoarding - Most of us used to have just enough ammo to go shooting with, always comfortable in the knowledge that you can pop by wallyworld even on the way to the range and get some more if you need it. Those days are gone, at least for now. The advice to get what you can, coupled with all of the new shooters buying ammo, plus the industry being taken by surprise, not tooling up (a wise move actually) - all driven by the threat of restrictions, silly laws (microstamping) and confiscation is a classic response in progress.

Yes, primers are in rare supply - the last store I stopped in and looked they had 1500 shotshell primers (primers, not boxes of primers). That was it. On the same hand, have you tried to find Hornady TAP or Cor-Bon on the shelf lately? 6.8Rem SPC anything - brass, bullets or loaded cartridges? It's all in short supply right now, with the factories running flat out.

If some of the posters here are right, there will be a glut of really cheap ammo and reloading supplies when the crunch is over, just like after Y2K. Well, this ain't Y2K with a well-defined end in sight. There is no end in sight and the market is not even close to being glutted. This is the way it is going to be for a while. Even if bho eventually leaves, we still have our congress critters to contend with, and they are in a very un-American mood at the moment.

So, like the rest of us, decide what you need, and then get what you can (and can afford) while you can and where you can and how you can. Example: I picked up some AK ammo at a gun show recently for less than $6 a box - 50% more than it used to sell for, but less than half of the local box store with a $13.50 price tag for the same mfr. on the empty shelf.

[MikeBjerum]

UM,

I have addressed this issue on more than one thread already.  I have discussed this with shooters, casual coffee drinkers and store employees and managers.  What is hoarding and what is purchasing for use?  It is a fine line and subject to where you are looking at the subject from.  Cut us all, including Michael Bane, some slack.

I did a quick inventory of my "supply" over the weekend, and the words I could anticipate hearing to describe my "pile" include nice, a lot, insane, rediculous, criminal, stupid ...  However, whether it is 9 mm, .40 S&W, .38 spl, .45 acp or colt, or any of several others I have and use, I can not find one caliber that I have enough to get through the year.  I have three and a half cases of trap loads (35 boxes, 875 shells) ... unbelievable to some, however last year I shot 3,750 shells, and my peak over the last five years is just over 7,000 (I remember because my wife watched me reload 7,000 rounds, add them to a small stock pile, and I ran out in late August).

For those that actively participate in this fine sport we need to ask how much is too much.  I am going to one match in June for which I have set aside 300 rounds each of .40 S&W and .45 acp (or supplies to reload that much).  To some that is more ammo than I should stock pile, but it is the bare minimum I need for that one weekend.  I still need practice sessions to be covered, and I would like to be able to participate in local matches.  I have been invited to go to my first SASS match next Saturday, and I do not have enough .38 spl to use.  I will be purchasing from my host to even try the games out.

Where am I rambling too with all this?  PERSPECTIVE is the word of the season!  Tens of thousands of rounds of ammo, and I do not have enough for the games I play.  In the eyes of some I have way too much and am depriving the rest of you, and in the eyes of others I have only a sampling of what a person should start with.  In my own estimation I am far below the comfort level I want going into the shooting season.  For the first time ever I am more worried about my supplies than I am my ability to put lead on target.

[Timothy]

One thing that I've yet heard mentioned in all the threads regarding lack of ammo and supplies is this, the economy runs on CREDIT!  Banks aren't lending much these days and I'm sure that ammo manufacturers are suffering the credit crunch as much as the rest of the country. 

Not having the capital to buy raw materials can be a real problem regardless of your business base, cash flow is always a tough thing to have to deal with...

Just a thought...

[Jkwas]

I was in Walmart suday purchasing some wiper blades and decided to check out at the sporting goods counter. Jokingly I asked the clerk if they had any .22lr in stock. He said as of today they changed their policy: No more than two boxes per day per customer. Every Sunday morning several gun store/range owners show up and buy every single round of pistol caliber that comes in the door. Every Sunday. I checked their ammo case and the sign was posted. Maybe now I'll get a chance at some ammo.
It occurs to me that some of these folks are buying it up and taking it to the gunshows where they can double their money.  Now I'm not against capitalism nor people making a buck, but if a store like Walmart wants to put in force a policy to try and satisfy more of their customers, which do buy more than ammo when they are there  , I don't think that's communism either.  After all, many stores will limit a sale item to "x" amount per customer to make sure there's enough to go around as a price leader.  That's all I have to say about that.

[Sponsor]

[Rastus]

Usage is the big driver.  Once upon a time...I had other things in life that took me away from shooting, so a couple of 50 round boxes of 22 was plenty for me along with a couple of boxes of #6 shot in the 12 gauge.  Now I have the time to shoot and a place and, for instance, last week one of my sons and I put 300+ rounds of 9MM downrange, 100 rounds of 45 and 50 rounds of 38 with about 100 22LR.  We were at a Roger's Range shooting targets and trying out a new handgun.  I'll do this about three times every two months..so on that basis I like to keep about a year's inventory on hand.  I don't spend my money on liquor, I don't spend it on women, I don't spend it on cigarettes, I don't spend it on a lot of things other people do...I do spend it on guns and ammo.  So, there ya' go.  The guys at Wal Mart think I'm hoarding now, when the truth is that I'm buying from them now because they are cheaper than the mail order outlets these days. 

Am I depriving someone...I don't think so.  I've just moved to a different source to maintain. 

[True_Texan]

I have to say, the point MB made about needs and wants is what really stuck with me.

It isn't about what you NEED. It is about what you WANT. This is America, not some communist run country (not yet at least). And what I want is a CRAP load of ammo so I can feel free to shoot when I want to shoot. Granted I don't shoot as often as I would like because I can see the ammo being used up. It's kind of like cash in your wallet. Maybe you only NEED to carry $100 with you. But I WANT to have lots more then that with me, basically so I can afford to buy the ammo. HAHAHA! But you can see the cash disappearing from your pocket and that isn't a good feeling so you tend to hold it back unless you WANT to spend it. Otherwise I just use a debt card, plastic comes out of my wallet and the same plastic goes back in. Isn't as harsh that way, mentally speaking. Bank statements are a different story. All those damn negative numbers. (Yes I know I am all over the place like a drunk on a moped.)

So you shouldn't look at it as hoarding. You should look at it as being prepared for when you WANT to shoot. Now if you are buying boat loads of ammo to turn around and sell it, I have a small problem with that. Just because what you are doing is taking advantage of people in times like this that WANT to have it for themselves.

That's just my 2 cents on it, which won't buy you a damn thing anymore. Not even a .22 round.

[Jkwas]

I reload now that I can't buy anymore. Unfortunately my work/family life don't allow very much time to "stake out" the Walmart everyday and I need to purchase at my convenience and not the delivery truck's.  People like me are being marginalized at this time but I know things will get better at some point.  I didn't think I'd be shooting more .38 than .22 but it is what it is.  I'll just cut back on shooting until things loosen up in a year or so.  Maybe I'll take up macrame 

[Michael Bane]

Big Bear, a fair and honest response!

If I could elaborate just a bit, buying what you need (of anything) for a short period of time always implies an endless, readily available supply of replacements and an anchored-in-stone supply chain. Sort of the personal extension of manufacturing's concept of Just-In-Time...components arrive at the ammo factory just in time to be assembled, are shipped to the store just in time to replenish items sold and into your hands just in time for you to head out to the range. The Internet and amazing advances in transportation over the last 25 years have stretched the supply chains to global...the shrimp you bought for dinner last night were being harvested in Vietnam a few days ago, for example...unthinkable just a few years ago.

However, the advances have effectively hidden the fragility of the overall system. Pandemic flu in Mexico, for example, has huge implications for American factories waiting for just in time deliveries of Mexican parts. Anything that slows border crossings would have a similar effect, which is why our borders remain open when just a couple of decades ago, they would have been reflexively closed or drastically tightened up in the face of an outbreak. Better the flu than industry grinding to a halt in the middle of a recession...the law of unintended consequences always applies.

That global supply chain is under attack by our foreign enemies; easier and far more effective to cripple shipping in critical transit areas than blow up another building in urban America.

Ammo itself is under attack by our domestic enemies, which have failed to enact the legislation they hoped for against firearms.

Buying what you need just before you consume it implies a faith in the overall system that I do not share. Stuff happens, and because of the global supply chain it can happen in Sri Lanka and in 48 hours have an effect on my living room. Also remember that stocking up on anything is in effect speculating in a commodities market, the same thing some guys get paid vast sums of money to do around the world and that is at the heart of a free trade system. Instead of "going long" on pork bellies, I'm going long on .22 LR. That is, I'm committing today's dollars at a fixed price on a commodity on the bet that the price of that commodity will rise in the future. Whether I have secured that commodity at that price for my personal consumption or for speculation is irrelevant.

And, frankly, everyone speculates...didn't we buy our houses — for most of us the most expensive purchase of our lives —  on the assumption that they would rise in value and thus provide us with a benefit? I don't know of anyone who walked away from a great deal on a house because they were afraid their neighbors couldn't get the same deal. We do the same thing in the supermarket...when a product is undervalued — called a "sale" — we buy more of the product, speculating that the price of the product will soon return to baseline, or go up.

Back in the 1960s when I was in college my buddy Mack and I figured that one should always have "sufficient" ammunition for one's "basic" guns (okay, we swiped that from Col. Cooper, whom we read religiously). At the time it mean spending what was then a fortune for 250 rounds of .38 S&W for my one centerfire and 2 or 3 bricks of .22. When I started competing, I decided that I needed a 1000-round "float" — about a week's worth of practice and match ammo, all reloads — on my primary competition calibers, and I made sure my carry guns were in the same caliber. I then bought 250 rounds of personal defense ammo, which I used sparingly.

I am presently operating on a replacement basis...I just spent $400 replacing what I used up last week, mostly in filming episodes of the shows. Objectively, I have a lot of ammo stockpiled, but yesterday I did some "rough cut" evaluations based on filming the shows, shooting competitions and training, and I didn't like what the numbers told me. The ultimate purpose of a stockpile is to buffer against either shortages or price increases and allow you to keep doing "X" at the same rate you were doing X before. I'm having to suck it up and replace what I use at whatever price I can cover because I'm looking at next year's show!

Michael B

[alfsauve]

..... manufacturing's concept of Just-In-Time...

When learning about Just-In-Time, called JIT, the consultant teaching our class reminded us there would be times when,

JIT HAPPENS

This is one of those times.