Disarming citizens during traffic stops

[2HOW]

Disarming the Public
Posted by Dave in Vegas on Saturday, March 28, 2009 12:00:00 AM

from keepandbeararms.com

Recently, I read some comments on KABA.com about reports concerning people who were legally carrying a concealed firearm being stopped by the police and disarmed during the encounter.

Other than to say I oppose the practice of disarming a citizen during a traffic stop I’m not discussing that aspect of this issue.

What I am going to discuss are the inherent dangers of the practice.

First, I called my local police department to ask what their position is concerning encounters involving legally armed people. Remember that when stopped, if you have a concealed carry permit and you are armed, you must inform the police officer of same.

I was told that it is their policy, a procedure taught in the academy, is to require the permit holder to surrender the firearm; the officer will unload the firearm and the permit holder is allowed to place the firearm in the trunk of his vehicle.

After the encounter, the permit holder may then drive to another location “down the street to a parking lot” and retrieve the firearm from the trunk.

I find a couple of serious problems with this procedure.

My first concern is excessive handling of a firearm is inherently dangerous. The concept of carrying a loaded, concealed firearm is this: once placed in a holster it really shouldn’t be removed unless you are planning to use the gun or are disarming at the end of the day. I don’t even like the idea that the firearm may have to be removed periodically during the day but there are instances when it must be done.

Next, many people are a bit nervous when stopped by the police. After all, the cops stopped you because you committed a traffic violation (otherwise you wouldn’t have been stopped, correct?) and you are probably going to receive a traffic citation, which is going to result in a fine and increased insurance rate.

So, now a police officer is going to request a possibly nervous person to hand over his loaded firearm. This is an accident just waiting to happen.

Further, I don't like the idea of handing someone a loaded firearm. This goes against firearm safety rules. Now when I go to the gun show at Cashman there are cops inside the door who check guns being brought into the building. When I check mine I carefully raise my shirttail, carefully remove the already unloaded firearm from the holster, carefully lock the slide back and then hand it the officers. They've never commented on this procedure.

Another scenario is that the officer will remove the firearm from the holster himself. This is even worse. The officer is at an awkward angle in relation to the firearm, he is removing an unfamiliar firearm from an unfamiliar holster.

Further, from an officer safety standpoint, the officer is in extremely close and dangerous proximity to the person he is disarming. I don’t have any idea how often this may occur but the concept is frightening.

In my opinion the best policy is to ascertain if the CCW holder is armed; find out where the gun is; tell the CCW holder to leave it there and don’t reach for it then proceed with the ticket.

Consider this: The permit holder is obviously a law-abiding individual. That is apparent due to the fact that he has already undergone a background check was issued the permit to carry a concealed firearm. Doesn’t it seem unlikely that the permit holder will take this opportunity to use the firearm illegally by shooting a cop?

At this point the officer is in possession of another person’s firearm.

I now have more concerns. It has been my experience that far too many police officers simply are not familiar with all the types of firearms available.

As an example this story was told to my academy class: A police officer was arresting a subject and during a search found a High Standard derringer concealed on the subject. The officer removed said firearm and placed the derringer in his waistband. The High Standard derringer does not have a trigger guard, however, it generally has a stiff trigger, meaning that you really have to pull the trigger hard and you really want to fire it before it will discharge.

This was not the case in this instance. As the officer was placing the derringer in his waist band, pushing the trigger against his duty belt, the gun discharged. The officer was wounded and lost a body part as a result.

Contrary to popular belief cops are not firearms experts.

The police officer now has possession of your firearm and he is going to attempt to unload it and then return it to you.

In the case of a 1911 style firearm, this is the process: Ensure that the safety is engaged; extract the magazine by depressing the magazine release button and remove the magazine from the magazine well of the firearm; with the magazine in one had or in a pocket, disengage the safety and retract the slide thereby ejecting a live round from the chamber, lock the slide back in the open position while attempting not to drop the live round. All of this should be done without pointing it at anyone. We are also assuming that the officer leaves the slide in the locked back position. We aren’t even considering that he didn’t release the slide into the in-battery position and lowering the hammer, which in itself is easy to do if you are an experienced firearms handler, but a dangerous thing to do.

This takes ten times longer (or more) to describe than it takes to accomplish. All this is done without a negligent discharge. Whew! No one was injured this time.

Now, according to my local police department the firearm will then be placed in the trunk of the traffic violator’s car (we’re assuming a sedan or coupe).

Business is completed; the grateful, nervous citation recipient is allowed to go on his way. He then pulls into a parking lot of a grocery store, gets out of the car, opens the trunk, reloads his firearm and places it in his holster.

Shoppers now see a man loading a gun in a parking lot and call the cops. Cops respond and surround the car, with firearms drawn and pointed at our poor losing contestant.

Does this sound like a safe thing? In my opinion, based on years of handling firearms, this is an extremely unsafe procedure.

If you think I am mistaken about cop’s firearms handling experience consider the following:

When I attended the police academy I was required to ride along with an experienced officer during my training. It didn’t matter that I had been on patrol for several months prior to attending the academy I still had to experience a ride along as part of the academy curriculum.

Prior to the ride-a-long, the officer ran me for warrants. The printout showed that I owned several firearms. One of the firearms I owned was a Smith & Wesson model 66.

During the ride-a-long the officer asked if I owned all those guns (I only owned thirty-five guns at the time). I stated that I did. The officer then stopped the car (we were in a residential area) and stated that he carried an S&W M-66. He then withdrew the revolver from his holster to show it to me.

Holding the revolver across his lap, he cocked the gun. Then, instead of placing his thumb on the hammer to lower it, he simply pulled the trigger. The impact of the bullet into the door shattered the driver side window.

Oops.

The officer’s left hand was on the steering wheel so the bullet traveled just under his elbow into the door.

Needles to say, the blast startled both of us. Later the officer stated to me that he thought that he had placed his thumb on the hammer prior to squeezing the trigger. I told him that I was watching as he squeezed the trigger and that his thumb was not on the hammer.

This was a case of unnecessarily handling a firearm which resulted in a negligent discharge.

The officer received a day off without pay for having damaged the vehicle. I had to write a report for my academy CO. Everyone had heard about the incident. My classmates razzed me as if I had been the one who negligently discharged a firearm.

The point again is that cops aren’t firearms experts and accidents happen, even with cops.

Accidental and negligent discharges occur often enough that there is a product available that is designed to stop a bullet when a gun is being handled during the unloading process and an unintended discharge occurs.

When I remove my firearm from the holster at the end of the day I place it in another holster for overnight storage. I only unload the gun once a week during the weekend for cleaning and inspection (this does not include range practice). I do not go through the process of unloading every evening and reloading in the morning in order to avoid unnecessary or excessive handling of a loaded firearm.

[fightingquaker13]

2how
I disagree with dave in vegas on this. I'm not an LEO, but my army training made it very clear that any weapon not held by you or your guys, needed to be visible and secured, lest very bad things happen.  I would have no problem handing over my weapon to an LEO during a traffic stop. The one time I did get pulled over while "carrying", for a broken taillight on my boat trailer, I informed the officer that there was a gun in the glove box and asked whether she wanted me to pull out the registration or if I should let her do it. She invited me out of the car, asked me to lift my shirt, and after asking if she had my permission to open the glove box and look inside, got the paper for me. I thought she was both professional and smart. (Bonus points for no ticket!).lHere's an article out of police mag. com to, a fun little website, to show the reason why I disagree with not securing a weapon at a traffick stop.
fightingquaker13

Policemag.com



Shots Fired: Pierce County, Washington 06-25-2006
State Trooper Kelly Kalmbach pulled over a drunk driver and ended up in a pitched gun battle.
November 17, 2008

As a Washington State Trooper, Kelly Kalmbach had been given her fair share of adrenaline jolts courtesy of other drivers. But few had come so close to taking her out as the driver of a white Cadillac that nearly clipped her patrol car around midnight June 25, 2006, on State Route 7 near Spanaway. Through the years the absence of a center median barrier wall along this highway had proven fateful for other Pierce County motorists, so Kalmbach knew it was up to her to stop this guy before he killed someone.

Kalmbach activated her emergency red lights and made a U-turn onto the southbound lanes in pursuit of the Cadillac.

I Have a Gun

The Cadillac drifted across two lanes then quickly turned into a gas station. It stopped abreast of the gasoline pumps, and Kalmbach pulled up behind it. She ran the license plate over her radio but, before she could copy a return, the driver side door of the Cadillac opened and the driver began to step out.

Kalmbach quickly exited her patrol car and yelled for the driver to stop what he was doing and keep his hands in plain view.

The clean-cut driver, later identified as 24-year-old Jack Sonntag, complied. But as Kalmbach moved toward the Cadillac, he suddenly said, "I have a gun."

Kalmbach pulled up short and drew her sidearm.

"Where?"

"It's in my waistband."

Consciously foregoing a request for backup, Kalmbach safely retrieved the firearm—a 9mm Ruger—from Sonntag's waistband. She didn't want to give Sonntag time to embolden himself to do something stupid.

"I have a permit," Sonntag explained, a familiar odor trailing on his breath.

Paperwork found in the Cadillac verified Sonntag's carry permit. Still, vehicle stops are inherently volatile situations—moreso when the detainee has been drinking—and the last variable Kalmbach wanted to add to the mix was a firearm.

Isolating the Ruger in the trunk of her vehicle for the duration of the detention would have been the trooper's preference. But Kalmbach didn't want to run the risk of getting a complaint for seizing a permitted firearm. She decided to secure the pistol inside the passenger compartment area of Sonntag's Cadillac pending the outcome of his field sobriety test.

This decision would prove to be fateful.

Front-Page News

Sonntag pleaded for parking lot amnesty.

"Come on," he asked. "Give me a break. I'm only two blocks from home."

Kalmbach wasn't one for cutting breaks to drunk drivers. Seventeen years as a police dispatcher had predisposed her against such leniency; an additional seven years of working patrol and witnessing the carnage wrought by drunks on the road had only calcified her bias. She asked Sonntag to perform a series of field sobriety tests.

Sonntag's frustrated attempts to successfully perform the tests readily confirmed Kalmbach's suspicions.

To look at Sonntag, one wouldn't be particularly intimidated. Certainly nothing in his lineage would have suggested any potential trouble. The son of a former Tacoma city councilman and nephew of a state auditor, he wasn't on parole or probation. He was polite and respectful to Kalmbach.

What Kalmbach couldn't have predicted was Sonntag's darker side. What he lacked in criminal pedigree, he made up for in swagger. Sonntag took great pride in his ability to carry a firearm and greater pains to display it. He'd made a habit of telling friends and relatives that he would never be taken under arrest.

"And if they try and take me," Sonntag had promised, "it'll be front-page news."

Perhaps he truly believed his own words. Maybe he felt obligated to live up to them. For Sonntag suddenly darted back to the Cadillac.

First Blood

Kalmbach couldn't believe it. All the compliance that Sonntag had displayed had disappeared in a split second. Determined to incapacitate Sonntag with less-lethal force before he could re-enter the vehicle, Kalmbach set off in foot pursuit, yelling "TASER! TASER! TASER!"

Kalmbach closed the gap between herself and the suspect and activated the TASER, but suddenly it was Kalmbach who felt fire coursing through the veins of her left arm.

She never saw the ballistic flash, never heard the distinctive report. But Kalmbach immediately knew one thing: She'd been shot.

How Sonntag could have retrieved the firearm so quickly was beyond Kalmbach's comprehension. She did understand one thing all too well: The situation had suddenly turned into a life or death one, one wherein the suspect had drawn first blood.

Marooned between the two vehicles, Kalmbach discarded her TASER and retreated for the passenger side of her patrol car for cover. As she moved, she drew her H&K .40 caliber sidearm and returned fire. Sonntag was still shooting at her from the open door of his Caddy.

Using her engine block for cover, Kalmbach continued to engage the suspect as she squatted in a modified Weaver stance, her incapacitated left arm hanging down and her right arm fully extended and firing. But the rapid fire of her weapon garnered no visible effect.

Sonntag remained standing inside his driver's door, everything about his body completely immobile save for the finger on the trigger. That was working overtime.

Hoping that she could suppress his fire, Kalmbach squeezed as many rounds at Sonntag's center mass as she could.

I Will Survive

Suddenly, the suspect stopped firing and dropped into the driver's seat. Putting the Cadillac in gear, Sonntag smashed against a pump guard rail as he accelerated in a wide swath and drove past the rear of Kalmbach's patrol car.

That son-of-a-bitch might take off, thought Kalmbach. But he's not going to get far.

And with that, Kalmbach took aim and fired at the suspect's left front tire. The Cadillac sped off down State Route 7.

As intense as it had been sudden, as short as it had been inexplicable, the firefight was over. Now Kalmbach found herself in round two of the fight for her life.

Within the span of a few seconds, some twenty rounds had been exchanged between suspect and officer.

A citizen passerby, Laurie Rowley, who'd witnessed the shootout, tied a tourniquet on the downed trooper's arm. It would prove to be a huge factor in Kalmbach's survival. Another was the trooper's mindset.

Kalmbach thought of her family and her obligation to come out of this for them. She recalled the words that she'd recited so many times in the academy: I will not die. I will not quit. I will survive.

Kalmbach had contemplated the possibility of getting shot on duty and wondered how she'd respond to such an incident. She had anticipated pain, but nothing nearly as intense as what she was experiencing. I will not die. I will survive.

That's Him

Only when another officer arrived on scene did Kalmbach allow herself to be seated on the pavement. She retrieved Sonntag's paperwork from where she'd stashed it behind the magazine pouch of her duty belt and tapped at the identification card.

"That's him," she told her fellow officer. "That's the man who shot me."

Seconds later, the suspect's description was broadcast to officers throughout the area who began to search for Jack Sonntag.

Meanwhile, with three of Kalmbach's hollow-point rounds in his chest and his Cadillac disabled with a flat tire, Sonntag called two friends to ask for a ride.

"I'm really scared," Sonntag begged. "Come and pick me up." The only additional information he volunteered was his location: A church parking lot.

The sight of a white Cadillac with a shredded left front tire parked in an empty church parking lot near midnight caught the eyes of two Pierce County sheriff's deputies, Rich Scanzfer and Scott Mock.

Pulling into the lot to investigate, they spotted a man matching the suspect's description emerging from the bushes. The timeline and distance—less than five miles from the site of the shooting—led one of the deputies to yell, "What's your name?"

"Jack!" came the reply. Sonntag leveled a handgun at them.

Scanzfer and Mock fired, and Sonntag fell. Shortly after midnight, he was pronounced dead at the scene by paramedics.

10 Hours of Surgery

Back at Madigan Army Hospital, a fellow officer gently grabbed Kalmbach's shoulder as she was being pulled into the emergency room.

"They got him. He's dead."

Normally, Kalmbach wasn't one to take comfort in the passing of another. But the last thing that she wanted was for this suspect to get the better of another officer, and she couldn't deny the profound sense of relief that washed over her.

But Kalmbach had paid a price, too. Sonntag's rounds had found their mark five times, passing through her left calf, the inside of her right knee, and her right hip. A round in her hip required surgical removal. But the most devastating round had been the first one, which had cut the brachial artery in her left arm.

Some 10 hours of surgery were followed by a slow reemergence into the world of consciousness; lucidity couldn't be claimed until two o'clock the following afternoon. And with it came pain—lots of pain. The combined effects of a morphine drip and pain pills every two hours could do little to abate the sensation of a platoon of red ants feasting on Kalmbach's every nerve. She stared down at the immobilized limb, wondering how something so still could feel like it was bouncing off every wall in the room.

Trooper of the Year

Eventually, the pain tapered off…way off, to the point that her hand had become insensate. As months went by, it became apparent that Kalmbach had suffered extreme nerve damage. Today, her weekly schedule includes an aggressive three-day-a-week physical rehabilitation program. She has dealt successfully with the emotional fallout of the incident, not having so much as a single nightmare.

When she looks back on the shooting, Kalmbach notes what worked out best for her, and what didn't. "I always took my training seriously. I never once went out there like it was 'play day.' I also went to the range as often as three times a month on my own initiative. I may be a gifted athlete, but I'm no marksman. So I made a conscious effort in working to strengthen my weaknesses."

Tactically, she was glad that her training kicked in once the shooting started, and she had the presence of mind to move for cover, as opposed to getting stuck in no man's land. As it turned out, the windshield, passenger door, and the front of the patrol car ended up absorbing four of the suspect's rounds. Absent such protection, Kalmbach doesn't doubt that she would have been struck more times.

Kalmbach has come to appreciate something else: the body's amazing ability to respond to such trauma. Indeed, as the shooting escalated, Kalmbach wasn't even aware that her legs had been shot. The need to respond to the situation completely superseded the momentary debilitating sense of pain.

There's only one thing that she would have done differently.

"I would have secured the firearm, and the hell with any potential complaint," she says.

Kalmbach wants to return to work, but her doctors have not given her any cause for false optimism, and she is learning to live with her impaired nerve endings.

"I've cut myself with gardening shears and didn't know it until I saw blood. I've burned myself, but didn't know until I saw a huge blister later."

Initially reticent to do so, Kalmbach has even agreed to meet with Sonntag's family members. Having lost her own son, she understands the pain the family is going through and feels that it will help bring closure for all involved.

In March, Kalmbach was named North America's Trooper of the Year by the International Association of Chiefs of Police. She was given the Mike Buckingham Award for the courage she displayed in surviving a critical incident, and on May 4, she received the Law Enforcement Medal of Honor.

Kalmbach hasn't had a single negative flashback related to the incident, but she still entertains an occasional thought.

A few more inches, and that guy could have killed me.

Dean Scoville is a patrol supervisor and investigator with the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department and Associate Editor of POLICE.

What Would You Do?

Consider the circumstances that faced Trooper Kelly Kalmbach when she confronted an apparently intoxicated driver possessing a legally carried firearm. Now ask yourself these questions:

″ How would you handle a citizen contact involving firearms?  What is your agency's posture on those situations involving permitted firearms?
″ If you had a subject take flight from you—knowing that he would be putting himself within reach of a firearm by doing so—how would you respond?
″ Do you have a survival mantra? What thoughts or prayers would keep you going if you found yourself badly wounded in a firefight?
author: Dean Scoville | posted @ Monday, November 17, 2008 9:42 PM

 

[PegLeg45]

I got stopped for speeding by Ga State trooper. I already had both my driver's and CCW license waiting with both hands on the steering wheel. I handed both to him with my insurance card. He looked at the CCW and asked if I had a weapon in the vehicle. I stated that I did. He asked if it was on my person or in the console (which is legal here). I said it was in the center console, and he leaned in and could see it. He asked if I minded stepping to the rear of the vehicle for both "his safety and mine" and I said that I had no problem with it at all. I made sure my hands stayed visible at all times and made no curious movements. We stood at the back of my truck and casually chatted until he finished the write up. He handed me back my stuff and said to have a nice evening. I noticed that he did wait until I got in my truck and drove off before re-entering his cruiser.

I got stopped once by a municipal cop (a case of mistaken identity). He didn't ask, but I told him I was carrying. He asked me to step out and show him the weapon. I got out and lifted my shirttail and exposed my 1911. He asked me to remove it from the holster slowly and place it on the seat of my truck. I did so, and backed away. He proceeded to pick it up and fondle it. I said that it was loaded (cocked & locked). He looked at me like I was crazy. I repeated that there was a round in the chamber and the safety was engaged. He said, and I quote, "Why do you need to carry a loaded gun?". And I looked at him like he was crazy. He said he didn't have any experience with 'that type' of pistol so he needed to call back-up. He had two more patrol units come to the 'event' which by now looked like a takedown. Fortunately, one of the other units was a good friend of mine and when he pulled up and got out started shaking his head. He told the original officer that I was 'OK' and not the person they were looking for.
One good thing though, I did end up teaching an impromptu class on the 1911 manual of arms to a couple of the officers who were interested, and hopefully educated a few folks.


Just ask Haz about LEO's and citizen's guns........(I know that not all LEO's are that bad, but you'd be surprised).

[TAB]

I don't like the idea of them taking it, if they are told up front about it and you produce your ccw permit.


What I really hate is when they say: " For your safety..."  which they really mean thiers, which I would be ok with if they said "for My safety" 

[fightingquaker13]

I don't like the idea of them taking it, if they are told up front about it and you produce your ccw permit.


What I really hate is when they say: " For your safety..."  which they really mean thiers, which I would be ok with if they said "for My safety" 

It is for our saftey to, because if you go to get a cell phone, or a stick of gum or some other stupid unconscious action that you might perform without thinking, it could get your ass shot by an officer that was afraid of being alone in the dark with an armed stranger (read a smart cop). Remember that whole deal in Oakland started with a simple traffic stop. Just because you had a clean record when you got your ccw three years ago, doesn't mean you don't have a warrant out for you today. In MHO, a smart officer will have that weapon secured, and then return it when you come back clean after running you licence. Until then they have every right to to be cautious.
I once got pulled over by a scared rookie who was very obviously power tripping to compensate, and let me tell you I was as scared as he was as a result, and kept my hands VERY visible.
fightingquaker13 

[Sponsor]

[bjtraz]

My only experience occured when I was stopped by a local LEO. I handed him my license & CCW, he looked at the CCW and handed it back to me, with no other comment. Didn't even ask if I was carrying, I was. Went back to his cruiser, did his thing, and sent me on my way.

Brian

[Dharmaeye]

There are a lot of LEO that I would not trust with a loaded gun, to unload.
They only know the one they have and at that, not that well.
I understand,  if there is a question of competence of the civilian - stopped for a very high rate of speed or other erratic behavior.

[Hottrockin]

I thought they'd already know (a CCW person)  before gettin' outta their car as the CCW runs thru the DMV and would be on their display when the first radio in your plates?  I'd only giv'em my regular license.  Of course, if they asked for my CCW or if I was carrying I comply and answer honestly!

I'd feel very uncomfortable giving them my gun because I ran a red light...I don't get it.  WE (CCW) are good upstanding people, surely they'd know that...why disarm us and create a situation that could go bad?

 

[twyacht]

Back in my NC days, I spent many years working at a marina with the Marine Division of the Sheriff's Dept. Good bunch of guys.

I was one of the first in line in the early 90's to get mine, and was pulled over for a burned out brake light, and a speeding deal, which was dismissed. (Sometimes its who you know that matters).

Talking with many of the Deputy Sheriff's, its at the officers discretion to "disarm" you, or let it ride so to speak.

If I had long hair, driving my old 72 Camaro, blasting Iron Maiden like I used to, yeah, I'd be out of the vehicle and "disarmed".

Now I'm pushin 40, got short hair, losing it also, wear "plain" clothes, and haven't had a problem.

Last encounter was a license plate bulb out, hands at "10 & 2" on the wheel, already had DL & CCW, INS in hand, and he just wrote a warning, told me to go to Auto Zone and replace the bulb.

Some officers may, based on their impression of you, ask you for the weapon, ask you to get out of the vehicle, or let it ride....

Most know that CCW holders are the "good" guys.

Now if your doing 68 in a school zone at 7:35 in the morning? All bets are off.

[fightingquaker13]

I thought they'd already know (a CCW person)  before gettin' outta their car as the CCW runs thru the DMV and would be on their display when the first radio in your plates?  I'd only giv'em my regular license.  Of course, if they asked for my CCW or if I was carrying I comply and answer honestly!

I'd feel very uncomfortable giving them my gun because I ran a red light...I don't get it.  WE (CCW) are good upstanding people, surely they'd know that...why disarm us and create a situation that could go bad?

 

Two problems hottockin;
1) Here in Fl. and in Tx. where I got my first ccw you are required by law to inform the officer that you are carrying and produce your permit if stopped. Failure to do so can result in the loss of your license. (Unfortunately, not all LEOs are our friends and some would happily write you up to get another amateur/vigilante/militia member off the street)
2) As I said before, you might have been clean when you got the permit, but the cop doesn't know if you have a car full of coke, or Jimmy Hoffas body in the trunk. It pains me to say this as both a libertarian and someone who's spent a lot of time researching the drug war, because I have an almost genetically programmed distrust of agents of the state carrying guns. But, I do understand that an officer who pulls you over for cause won't want an unsecured weapon at their back. I wouldn't either. Putting it in their patrol caar is no big deal. To me its like them asking you to turn off the engine. If you doubt me read the article I posted above.
fightingquaker13