Author Topic: "If I Only had a Gun" - not hopeful it's fair and balanced  (Read 12702 times)

1776 Rebel

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Re: "If I Only had a Gun" - not hopeful it's fair and balanced
« Reply #20 on: April 11, 2009, 02:25:21 PM »
This show so pissed me off that I actually re-ran it on Tivo. I made a summary of the show and more importantly I've listed the commercial advertisers on the show. THESE ARE THE FOLKS THAT WE NEED TO WRITE TO. Tell them that they are supporting propaganda and the show was NOT reporting. If they want your business they have to make it known to ABC that we object !

For what it is worth here are my notes of the show. I was going to annotate this but almost every scene and sentence was so off base I thought the better of it. When I quote something, I had re-racked the tape multiple times to verify it is correct.


ABC News 20/20 If I Had A Gun – First Airing Friday April 10, 2009


Diane Sawyer and David Muir are the hosts

Gunshots kill 30K a year

“This is not a debate about the right to own a gun in America.”

Scene of gun fight in store, 14 shots fired.

Scenes of mass shootings.

Diane says police say “think about it” regards using a gun for defense.

Chris Benton and Glen Dorney and Bethlehem PA police dept worked with ABC.

ABC created a test of the ability to defend yourself

Mulhenberg College
6 students chosen
Real Glock with paint bullets.

ABC gave the students training. It was more than what half the states require for someone to carry a concealed weapon

Move to a classroom situation.
Student is told they are the only person to have a gun with which to defend themselves.
“Joey can’t keep his hand off the gun.”
Other people are cops or work for ABC.
The student is wearing a protective helmet and GLOVES.

Joey can’t get out his gun. It’s stuck in his shirt. Or “would the intruder take his gun from him.”

Video of DEA agent shooting himself in leg while teaching kids.

Danielle gets her gun out. Diane says “A weapon alone won’t save you if your body is in the wrong place.  She takes a hit to the head.”

BG is hit in the leg.

Brian freezes in his seat.

Chris Benton talks about fine motor skills when jacked up

Diane Sawyer in front of simulator screen. First time no reaction to guy firing gun at her from back of vehicle. “Second time you still can’t get there in time.”

Police train for months… Chris Benton TOO MUCH FOR A NORMAL PERSON WHO ISNT TRAINED.

Chris Lamb most experienced student. Chris takes cover. “EVEN HE FREEZES IN PLACE.”

NO WONDER police stress that you must train.

Training is a perishable skill.  Glen Dorney says in 1 or 2 months you lose the skill.

Student says it MAKES YOU MORE SUSEPTABLE TO BEING SHOT.

Back to the store video of Gun fight.    “14 shots and none of the shots came close” .

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David Muir
Every third house has a gun…”what about your neighbors?”
Video of father and son on way to Westfield Mass range then firing an UZI and AK.
Moment later contrasted with “Another young shooter looses control of the gun he is shooting and kills himself”.

“Every other day a child is accidentally shot and killed with a gun.”

911 tapes of AD shootings
Suicidal kid because of shooting his friend.

Evan Toesma (kid who shot his friend on tape) lots of crying. “Was at a friend s house not knowing the AK was loaded.”
“All because he pulled that trigger for fun.”

Little kids on video.  Real small kids finding guns among toys.
Just had been given a lesson on gun safety with help from Eddie Eagle (looks like a cop running a tape).

Girls finds her dads gun in the nightstand  “and it was fully loaded”

“In the ten years we have seen Virginia Tech and 29,000 children and teens killed by guns”.

Will kids today act differently today?

NJ Firearms Academy  Latik Dickerson.

Asks him what he expects in this experiment of high school and college kids hired to help pack for someone moving. Expects they will tell someone when they find a gun in dresser drawer.

Diane says “In every case it starts normal.”

Girl dumped gun into packing box. “IT COULD HAVE GONE OFF!”

Of the 23 students, only 3 asked for help.

Video of Mike (kid who shot friend). Father locked up. “21 states hold parents responsible for unlocked guns in the home.”

Video of him marching in a band. Marched at Obama inauguration. Cut to BHO and Michelle waving.

Muir asks kid “is there something that you hope the President will do about guns and children in America?”  Kid says.”keep them away. Lock them all up. That’s what I would do if I were president”.

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Promo ABC show - Castle


Inauguration night Diane Sawyer
Damon Weaver 10 yr old school reporter has question for president. Shows him whispering to Diane “the question”.

Lives in Pahokee Florida. “It has a population of 3,000 and an infinity of guns.”

Video of gang bangers (in Pahokee?)
In the elementary school:
60 percent know someone who was shot
40 percent have witnessed a shooting

Friend Jatavious - father got shot. Kid is crying.
No one arrested for the murder.

Kid reporter goes to the local police. Detective Mike Wallace is in violent crimes unit. Father was shot a couple of times with a shotgun. Det. Says they know who shot the father but witnesses won’t testify. “Gang members scare people”.

Three gang bangers say they didn’t report getting shot to the police.

Adults use jitterbugs (young kids) to buy the guns.
Kid reporter’s older brother Marcus approached by gangs.

Kid reporter says he is telling his story “so people don’t die”.

Segment finishes with the kid reporter saying “President Obama what can you do to help out Pahokee?” That was the question he whispered to Sawyer.

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ABC promo – The Unusuals
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David Muir
So  many promises after Virgina Tech to “CLEAN UP THE GUNS”
“Is it any harder to buy a gun?”

Omar Samaha, student whose sister was killed at VT.
At Richmond VA gun show
VA Governor urged at the time to close gun show loophole.

Omar is given 1 hour and 5,000 dollars to buy guns at the show.
Outside the show, he bought handgun. “this even before you got into the show !”
Didn’t ask about criminal background.

Cho (shooter at VT) bought gun at gun dealer where background checks ARE required.

“The gun show loophole considered even more glaring.”
Omar carrying a “semi auto assault weapon”.

Guy passing by car which has Omar’s guns in the back. …”wanting to BUY” (like a drug dealer transaction)

BATF says gun shows are a major source of crime guns … “but they have no numbers”.

Muir calls state senator Edwards.
Calls NRA but they decline interview.
Omar says he “wonders what kind of people are making our laws?”

ABC assisted by former ATF agent Jerry Nunziato
Says nothing seller did or Omar did was wrong.

Video of Omar’s sister dancing.
Diane asks Muir what they did with the guns Omar purchased.
“Took them straight to the Richmond police department. We turned them in.”

“Tonight we’ve learned that it’s not only Omar asking for change. The nations mayors are now asking that something be done about the assault weapons, about all the guns.”

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Diane sawyer

Gun rampages at:
Mall
Nursing home
Unitarian church
“Any lessons to be learned here on self defense and survival?”

Film of JJ Bittenbinder (ex cop who teaches crime awareness classes)
Try to run.
How many times is his going to shoot? 50% of the time. How many times is a shot going to hit? Says something about 12% of the time


Bill Stanton (security expert)
Don’t make panicky moves.
Just do nothing, hide.
Not every one is Rambo.

Diane says cell phone is valuable.

Diane says “Of course guns have been used to run off intruders.”

Glenn Dorsey “you just see the gun”
Police have to train and retrain to see peripheral actions.
In the student experiment they planted another gunman in his peripheral vision.
Jason, “Like our other students he makes mistakes”

Student - range training didn’t prepare him for it.

Couldn’t see if other shooter was BG or GG.

 Student Ashley Malik is an instructor in marshal arts.
She fails to take sufficient cover. 15 shots fired.
Benton says  “where do you think you’d be now?”

Diane says “Comes within inches of hitting other students”.

“It happens all to often”
Man shot wife. She’s dead.

Hotel clerk shoots just inches from a baby’s head.
“We all know how often police hit innocent bystanders”

“A recap now of how our students did.”
“Half couldn’t get the gun out.”
“Those who did, couldn’t shoot fast enough or accurately enough to save themselves, and there was the constant danger they would shoot a friend or bystander.”

With regard to studies of guns used in defensive situations, Diane says “we could not find one reliable study. And the ones we found were contradictory.”

Muir says “the CDC says over 10 year period, 60 thousand kids and young people have died from a gun.”

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fullautovalmet76

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Re: "If I Only had a Gun" - not hopeful it's fair and balanced
« Reply #21 on: April 11, 2009, 02:30:08 PM »
I like how at the end of the show, they said they could not find any "reliable studies" for pro side of guns. Maybe they never heard of this man: http://criminology.fsu.edu/p/faculty-gary-kleck.php

Many of you will recognize him immediately. I haven't spoken to hm yet, but I understand that he is a liberal Democrat. And when he started looking into the issue of guns in America, he had an initial bias that the research would show negatively on guns but it did not turn out that way. Dr. Kleck had  the integrity to stand by his research and let the facts change his mind.......

Pathfinder

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Re: "If I Only had a Gun" - not hopeful it's fair and balanced
« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2009, 02:50:50 PM »
COMMERCIALS
Dannon yogurt
Kohls
Dove
Fidelity
Cialis
Universal movie - The Soloist
Verizon wireless
ABC extreme makeover home edition

COMMERCIALS
Abilify anti depression med
Petsmart
ATT & Apple
Nicoderm
New Line Cinema movie – Ghost of Girlfriends Past
Remax Reality
Bali
GMA promo
Promo ABC show - Castle
COMMERCIALS
Sprint
Reclast med
H&R block
ABC promo – The Unusuals
Marshalls
Empire City Casino
Chrysler
Optimum cable

COMMERCIALS
Verizon
Travelers Insurance
Transitions lenses
GMA promo
Dancing with the stars promo
Verizon fios
Stop and Shop supermarket
ESPN

COMMERCIALS
Local news
Att
Kohls
Dove
Universal movie – State of Play
ABC promo movie -Ten Commandments

OK, folks, there's your list for your homework. Let'em know just what you think of them "sponsoring" this biased, anti-American load of crap.

ABC? F-em. 'Nuf said.
"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do this to others and I require the same from them"

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PegLeg45

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Re: "If I Only had a Gun" - not hopeful it's fair and balanced
« Reply #23 on: April 11, 2009, 03:15:30 PM »
Sorry, still no excuse.  They are professionals with ways of getting the message across.  That is one (major) reason we support them!

Agreed, but instead of going onto shows like this that edit and spin what you say to their benefit, the NRA should pony up the $$$ to put out their own show. Purchase the airtime from local TV networks on the grassroots level across the nation.
My local channels all show a half dozen or more 'info-mercials' each day.

"I expect perdition, I always have. I keep this building at my back, and several guns handy, in case perdition arrives in a form that's susceptible to bullets. I expect it will come in the disease form, though. I'm susceptible to diseases, and you can't shoot a damned disease." ~ Judge Roy Bean, Streets of Laredo

For the Patriots of this country, the Constitution is second only to the Bible for most. For those who love this country, but do not share my personal beliefs, it is their Bible. To them nothing comes before the Constitution of these United States of America. For this we are all labeled potential terrorists. ~ Dean Garrison

"When it comes to the enemy, just because they ain't pullin' a trigger, doesn't mean they ain't totin' ammo for those that are."~PegLeg

Rob10ring

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Re: "If I Only had a Gun" - not hopeful it's fair and balanced
« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2009, 03:52:36 PM »
Ah, let's do this again. 

ALT SCENARIO 1:   This time, unbeknownst to the "attacker", the student with the gun passes it to another student in a different part of the room.

ALT SCENARIO 2:  This time two (are more) students are armed, while the attacker only thinks one is.

ALT SCENARIO 3:   We go to the local jail and ask inmates if they would attack knowing that about half the class were armed?   If 25%?  If 10%.

ALT SCENARIO 4:   (for fun) All students are armed with paint ball guns and have them ready.  The attacker is lead to believe only one is CCW as in original scenario.

I was thinking that multiple armed students would have made a big difference. At one of the colleges where students can carry, it is possible that an attacker might meet up with multiple attackers. Also, someone armed and in a defensive mindset isn't going to leave his/her back open. They wouldn't be sitting in the front row.

There were references comparing these scenarios to Virginia Tech. This wasn't like VT though. In that shooting, there were students and faculty who heard the shooting coming and waited, unarmed, to be slaughtered. Even 1 gun in the hands of any of those behind a closed door could have turned the tables.

This was rigged to show that the cops in Bethleham and ABC don't want anyone to think that a gun will help anyone.

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Re: "If I Only had a Gun" - not hopeful it's fair and balanced
« Reply #25 on: Today at 03:21:24 PM »

Fatman

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Re: "If I Only had a Gun" - not hopeful it's fair and balanced
« Reply #25 on: April 11, 2009, 09:15:08 PM »
Quote
If I Only Had A Gun misfires for 20/20 when they cannot stay on topic.
April 11, 9:15 AM

How do you hit the broad side of a barn in a news report when you can't see the core issues? How did we know the report would be misleading and terribly lacking? As you know, I write for non-gun owners. I furnish analysis and facts more on the issue of liberty and citizen authority than guns themselves. Guns, liberty, and our sovereign authority over officials in this country are inextricable, and I have shown why over the years. The armed citizen is not an opinion concept, it is and always has been a safeguard of our way of life. It is this safeguard which is now under attack.

2009 sees an assault on that liberty (and our very authority) by a poor persuasive piece couched as a don't-run-with-scissors finger waving. The problem is that it did not stay on topic at all, and misses the core point of all gun ownership: it's not about guns, it's about carrying our own burdens in all things as a means of retaining independence from our own public servants. Talking citizens out of being armed and independent of much of the unneeded programs operates not for the public interest, but against it.

The rest:

http://www.examiner.com/x-2323-LA-Gun-Rights-Examiner~y2009m4d11-If-I-Only-Had-A-Gun-misfires-for-2020-when-they-cannot-stay-on-topic
Anti: I think some of you gentleman would choose to apply a gun shaped remedy to any problem or potential problem that presented itself? Your reverance (sic) for firearms is maintained with an almost religious zeal. The mind boggles! it really does...

Me: Naw, we just apply a gun-shaped remedy to those extreme life threatening situations that call for it. All the less urgent problems we're willing to discuss.

bbbean

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Re: "If I Only had a Gun" - not hopeful it's fair and balanced
« Reply #26 on: April 11, 2009, 10:10:16 PM »
Gosh - I wish we had someone with a TV show (or three) who could recreate the "experiment" with realistic equipment, realistic scenarios, and realistic results. Maybe (and I know this is a stretch) they could ask actual bonafide CCW holders to participate in a scenario where a someone with average skills (i.e. not a professional trainer) commits a crime and CCW holders respond with realistic gear.

Do we know anyone like that? Michael? Jim? Anyone?

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Michael Bane

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Re: "If I Only had a Gun" - not hopeful it's fair and balanced
« Reply #27 on: April 14, 2009, 12:40:10 PM »
The question is, who'd watch? SHOOTING GALLERY pioneered running Real-World based sims, and we have followed that up with THE BEST DEFENSE. I have been criticized within the firearms community for running those simulations — "Bad guys watch your shows, too." I believe the importance of Real World information overrules the potential for teaching bad guys stuff they've already learned form a life of crime and "training" in prison.

Actually, as noted on another forum, the 20/20 sim is a "Kobayashi Maru" scenario (come on, Trekkies...step up and explain!), that is, as structured there's no win on the table. The reason it's a Kobayashi Maru is that 20/20 used a trained professional as the aggressor and the aggressor had "inside information," ie, that someone in the classroom would be armed. The trained professional (and this is obvious from the video) is looking for the gun in the room, making it virtually impossible to even best-case draw into the drawn gun (1 - 1.5 seconds to draw and fire vs. the time it takes the aggressor to pull the trigger).

It's actually a good sim for what it was intended to show, which is (and I emphasize this for a reason) IN A CRISIS SITUATION, YOU WILL NOT RISE TO THE OCCASION! RATHER, YOU WILL DEFAULT TO YOUR LEVEL OF TRAINING!

This statement is a tenant of faith in the training community, and to a person the armed students in the 20/20 sim defaulted to their level of training. Even the guy with square range experience seized up (that is, in the absence of a mental "index card" titled "What I Need to Do in a Classroom Shooting if I'm Armed" he reverted to his default monkey programming, eg, FREEZE, and hope the saber-tooth passes you by and eats Mrs. Ugg).

What they did not show was the obvious follow-up sim where the student is, say, a graduate of GUNSITE or Thunder Ranch or Combat Focus Shooting...how would a trained person "game" this sim? One way that pops to mind is to join the other students screaming and running for the exit on the right; exit the door into the hallway; draw your gun and using the door as concealment/barricade engage aggressor, preferably by shooting him in the back of the head. In a more Real World-based sim, where the aggressor is not looking for the known gun in the room, another alternative would be to in the panic over the first shots, hit the floor and as much as possible tuck up under the desk area; draw from there and engage from underneath when the aggressor's attention is elsewhere. In general, you're looking to get to a point of concealment (ideally cover, but there wasn't a lot of that in the classroom) before you draw so the aggressor does not know he/she is facing an armed opponent.

It also showed the importance of understanding how your gear will function in the context you're planning on using it. I love strong-side Kydex vertical belt holsters for general useage. However, that would not be my first choice if I was sitting in a classroom all day because any draw stroke would be telegraphed. A pocket holster would be even worse. A crossdraw might be a better choice, or the gun in a concealed carry briefcase kept right by your seat and readily accessible. Whatever you choose, you need to practice your drawstroke with the clothing you will be wearing!

Frankly, if I decided to go back to college at this late date, or if I worked in an office every day, I would UNEQUIVOCALLY have at the very least a briefcase or backpack with a Kevlar insert (such as the ones from BulletProofME; http://bulletproofme.com/Concealed-Carry-Briefcase.htm or the more sophisticated ones used for VIP protection). Not ideal, but better than nothing.

BTW, we're going to be talking more about this on the podcast tomorrow...

Michael B


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ericire12

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1776 Rebel

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Re: "If I Only had a Gun" - not hopeful it's fair and balanced
« Reply #29 on: April 14, 2009, 09:08:30 PM »
Enough of the gaming regards the shootout. ABC sucks. As Clint Smith would say, "got it". How about some gaming as to how to respond. Yes we chat about this on this forum. BUT WHAT IS THE INDUSTRY DOING? Once again the industry is caught totally flat footed.   I swear that I don't get it ! If the ball bearing industry was being beat the hell over the roundness of their balls, don't ya think they would put something up on YOUTUBE? Wouldn't someone be Tweetering away? Wouldn't facebook, myspace etc have all sorts of stink over it? Wouldn't someone be buying time on ABC for a response even if for a 1 minute spot on the evening news?

The industry is the most backward, most out of touch, most lame I have ever seen. If someone was going into the yearbook for most likely to end up changing tires at the bus depot it would be the firearm execs and NSSF. And don't forget the NRA, SAF, GOA etc...they ain't getting off the hook either. Where in gods name are they all? Talk about freezing in hopes the sabre tooth tiger will just pass by !!!

 

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